Doug:Grant: that's shades of that nazi in Illinois,ah, the world church of the creator.Now I'm not a lawyer but saying something like this would seem like breaking some kind of civil rights ruling. It might even be breaking the legal Bar in Colorado to slander other lawyers because of their different beliefs."Thems" being lawyers I'm sure we will find out very shortly. - 2:40:28 on 1 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:DOUG-- This is my major problem area with Xtians. They think they have a monopoly on morality and ethics, but really don't understand what they are. They mistake obedience for them, for one thing, and don't think they need to be wasted on non-Xtians, for another. - 13:25:30 on 1 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Over the weekend on local tv we watched a program of the local political types. I was grabbed by it because they were candidates for the local school board. They were pretty representative of the community. One of the questions they had to respond to was that of the science or creationism in the El Cerrito schools. They all said, in various ways, creationism belonged in church, not the school room. The questions were from the El Cerrito community, mailed in and selected for the program. I must say that I was relieved at hearing that response. While I've held that those around me while probably not atheists and there aren't churchs littered throughout this community the people here I figgered were maybe more thoughtful. - 15:59:30 on 1 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Grant: That's the truth, for sure.They can't even live with differing views, without trying to claim either martyr status, if a minority or special majorirty rights.It's very interesting to compare xianity with it's jewish root religion.Original sin was taken care of by the noah flood(god exterminated the planet),yet xians still believe jews have this guilt, they don't.Faith is the opposite of sin, a purely xian concept, jews don't view it, or for that matter neither do any other religions that I know of.It was a st. paul invention(Faith is the opposite of sin).Another thing they deny is that alot of the bible myth was left on the cutting room floor and "borrowed" from other religions word for word.And xians just don't get it when atheists call their deity evil , and would oppose god if it existed as an evil creature(Isa 45:7). - 2:29:36 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Actually I have never really thought of that point. Very true! Christians are born guilty and as you say, Saul/Paul (another David Koresh IMO) invented modern day christianity. The catholic religion is especially bad for laying on guilt but lately the born again ones are making for good competition. - 3:42:51 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Sounds like you live in a sound area, unlike some other areas in the US. The same thing happens here in Canada though. School divisions decide what is taught in their schools. There are divisions here that teach creationism as though it were a supportable theory. - 3:46:24 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Have you gotten a chance to read Stenger's book? Which one did you buy? And what do you think? If I want any of his books I have to order them but at least I can get them so I'm waiting for your opinion... - 3:48:44 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Oh Saul/Paul was a very hateful person.Real contempt and hate for women and all things female. I mean those early monks wouldn't even eat a female animal part, it had to be all male.I just don't see how women in the modern age could follow such demeanning trite. - 3:50:15 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I have 'The Unconcious Quantum.' It looks pretty good. I'd say easily worth a read. I'm currently ass deep in another area. Give me three weeks and I'll send it to you, if you wish. - 5:04:21 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I know, I've read his stuff which brings this all around to the question, did Paul hate women? Most homosexuals do not hate women so this would not likely be a reason for it but.. was Paul a homosexual? And if Jesus did exist,.. was Jesus? And was this what Paul saw that infatuated him with the christian movement as it was then? - 5:06:43 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- THAT! Sounds great! Thanks! - 5:07:43 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Just a suggestion...over the last few years something sometimes happens where this discussion gets interrupted over server problems or what have you. I, for one, will normally email Grant and ask "what's happenin?". I doubt Grant would mind if you wanted to mail him with your address so he could keep in touch if something like that happened. Most of us here have each other's email addresses here anyway. - 5:13:23 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Doug and I have met, in that e-mail sort of way. :-) - 14:35:22 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: Unfortunately, only the deliberative type readers and investigators will or could see of the xian-religion such fabrication and contrivances, you mention above. Those who call themselves xian, must look away or play the shell game of words. When they play this word-game, all that they do is flit from one religious-word to another such-word. In this way, they can separate themselves from being the mere animal-like creature they are, and instead, they word-connect themselves to a godmade thing. I think a question these religious-adherents could be asked is, what are their basic interests for uttering such sounds they hold to be about a godthing. - 15:52:48 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:Marlene, I can agree with you on the lawyer bit. Money talks and the guilty walks, "at least sometimes" I just don't see a lawyer changing his "courtroom buisness" because of a clients beliefs. It the lawyer is the District Att., he's going to try to convict you, and your lawyer is going to try to get a not guilty verdict, reguardless! - 23:15:20 on 2 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- While your checking in here, give us some more info on the book you recommended. - 1:59:57 on 3 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Carl: Yes, most religionists skim over the basic facts of the matter and go into this whole elaborate creation of myth that has no footing in reality.Oh and the one that gets me, is that it can never be shown.Then how in "hell"(expression only),if it can't be shown do they know anything about it.Talk about being dogmatic. - 3:05:56 on 3 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:I KNOW you people think I do nothing but watch TV but...did anyone watch JAG tonight? The "expert" they had as a scientific witness against the paranormal was portrayed as the most unlikeable guy one could ever come across. When asked all the questions on chance vs paranormal telepathy, he had all the right answers then when asked if he believed in god, he said "yes,someone had to create scientific laws". Who writes these shows, Josh? - 4:05:34 on 3 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:It's just good, you'll like it! Yea, Josh could have wrote that part. I saw bits and pieces of it! - 4:21:01 on 3 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- The thing is that you didn't give us the right author/book. We need the author and the name of the book. - 5:02:29 on 3 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: If one accepts the reports of the main-stream media, in the USA as reactions elsewhere being indeterminable, who here sees as ok the treatment that TX kid got for his halloween paper? I read it. I don't think it warranted the treatment the kid recieved. My issue, however, is not with the poorly written paper that got a 100, but the adults and the media for allowing such stuff to have a word-life. As you've noted I am contemplating the ills of "words" and that action looks like an excellent example of the points I brought forward here, originally made by C.I.Lewis. While I guess we are supposed to go along with at least some of society's determinations of good and bad, sometimes though the conclusions of society have a tyranny about them. Perhaps this is the source for the so worded "terror" that the media owners puts forward, but its for someone's ironical pleasure. - 20:20:50 on 3 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:I thought I did. The authors name is J. W. McGarvey A.M. The title is Evidences of Christianity Doug, I think you have taken Paul "Saul" all wrong. He never said he hated women. When he spoke to the Corienthians, and said women should be silent in churches, he was refuring to speaking in tongues, he praised women for their work, just gave direction as to where their works were needed. - 3:30:18 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Thanks! I'll try that again and see if I can find it. I'm watching a movie right now and just posting in between commercials but I want to talk more about Paul/Saul. But just a quick question, were men allowed to speak in tongues? - 4:02:30 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Ricky: all I can find is by the Author: Pierson, Arthur T. (Arthur Tappan), 1837-1911 on that title.Even though J. W. McGarvey is listed as author of a few books of other titles written in that era.This is at the GORDON college library.They are on our regional library system, so I can take out books from there. If they don't have it I'll have to go interlibrary loan.***** speaking in tongues? that's the first time I heard that analysis of Paul that way. - 5:16:45 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I read the write up on that. The reality is, ghosts, goblins and witches aren't scary to kids anymore. Real situations like Columbine are scary. I remember screaming when the girl's head started spinning in the Exorcist, it wouldn't even fizz kids now a days. He definately deserved a good mark I suppose since it really did scare the shit out of everyone. But to lock him up....??? It is only a story. I could write a story saying how I could do anything, doesn't mean I would actually do it. It wasn't written as a threat I understand, just a scary story. - 5:20:11 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:That Ricky must be a busy man, he posts a few words then Woooffff! He's gone for a few days again. - 5:23:50 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- While you here, if you still are....at the top of the page it says "site index" when you click on that and get to the main page, can you access the arguments ? - 5:25:32 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

ricky:Yes, it was considered a spiritual gift given by the holy spirit on the day of penticost. - 14:22:50 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- So how come women couldn't have this spiritual gift? After all, without women, men couldn't do the fruitful thing. - 14:53:16 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:SUBJECT: Black boy, A little white boy was watching his Ma in the kitchen making a chocolate cake from scratch.While the Ma had her head turned, the little white boy went to the table, dipped both hands in the chocolate frosting and covered his face with it. The Ma turned around to see what the boy was doing and said "Boy, what are you doing?" The son gleefully replied "Look Mama! I'm black!!!" The Ma became enraged and slapped the crap out of her son. She then said "Boy, go show your father what you've done!"---The boy then walked into the den where his father was reading and said "Look Daddy! I'm Black!!" The father put his magazine down and had a very puzzled look on his face from seeing the choclate on the boys face. The father said "Come here, boy!" The boy went to him and the father smacked his son across the head. The father angrily said "Now go show your grandpa what you've done!"---The boy then slowly walked to his grandpa who was on the proch and said "Um...Grandpa. Look what I did. I'm black now." The gradpa said gruffly "COME HERE, BOY!" The grandpa took the boy over his knee and proceeded to spank him. "That'll teach you! Now go back in the kitchen with your mama!" The boy walks back into the kitchen and the mother said "I hope you've learned your lesson, young man!" The boy says with a scowl on his face "Heck yea! I've only been black for 5 minutes and I hate you white people already!" *A joke* - 15:51:29 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:I don't have a password, so no I can't access them - 16:23:12 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Sad but true I suppose. Some people in Canada here think that racism doesn't exist here and for the most part I don't think it does. I for one was taught as a child that skin color is the like eye color, it just makes people look different. My parents were older too, I was raised by a great aunt and uncle who if they were alive today would be 90 something. Actually being a person who likes "different" I love dark skin especially if contrasted by blue or green eyes. What I don't like is culturalism and it's very popular in Canada. I think it actually sometimes creates problems by setting certain groups of people apart from others. One of these cultures are of European origin and actually do consider people of darker skin to be inferior. These people are the only people I've ever come across with this attitude. - 18:22:42 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Did you laugh? I think I mentioned once at least a old German Jew who studied racism and I think homosexuality gathered all he could that was written on these matters. This feller lived in Nazi-Germany and these people destroyed the library he had built for his findings, then they burned all that he collected. His name eludes me at this time. The author researched that stuff and said the word racism was religion related, xianity in'ticular. The account concerned the 'gods-chosen' that being passed on to the xian-religion itself. The jews blew it, so for purposes related to who and who wasn't chosen by the godthing became the beginning of racism. Only later did it include the melanin stuff. I wonder what it must be like to be a racist and or a religious-xian, is it fun? They both accept an invisible unknowable godthing, they both base their mind set on myths and superstitions thunk-up and composed in the days of prevailing ignorance, wow! - 22:28:42 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL-Strange you mentioned this as I was reading a book this afternoon about a jewish man who lived in the Ukraine during the years of 1887- 1914. Of course the enemy at the time were the Cossacks. He recalls how he never trusted blonde people. The two, race and religion, are most likely entertwined and again each set one group of people apart from another. Maybe it started out to have something to do with needing to belong to a group with like minds then like looks. Or as in this man's case joining together as a group in fear of another group with like minds and like look. I remember an incident involving my son. His dad (my ex-husband) family belongs to this European based culture I mentioned. One day I was at the supermarket looking through the glass at the deli deciding what to pick up for lunch meat when my son, who was 5 at the time said YUCK! . I thought he seen something through the glass that he didn't like so I turned to him to see what he was looking at. To my dismay, he was looking up at a dark skinned lady with this horrified look on his face. I apologized to the lady and made him apologize too although I know he didn't know what he was apologizing for. When we got out to the car, I asked him, why he didn't like the lady. He said his grandmother (his dad's mom) said dark skinned people weren't human and that they were ugly. Until that time I just assumed that he really didn't see much difference in color. I live in a rural area where I know of no black people living and there are also very few in Manitoba period. It took me a long while to change his mind on that one because he loved his grandmother and she wouldn't tell him something that wasn't true. I know now that he thinks dark skinned people are pretty good looking as he dated a girl last year. But I couldn't believe that someone like the ex motherinlaw can believe such a thing. - 23:28:58 on 4 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: In the "olden days" when men were men and the sheep knew it,dark skin was a sign of the lower(working classes) classes.So everybody tried to look lily white, especially women.Now today(in spite of skin cancer)everyone holidays in the tropics for winter vacation and tries to get as tan as possible.It is a sign of wealth, but somehow the prejudices were forgotten on why this is so to the sun worshipers.I understand what your trying to say but most people will want to look rich.That's why all Canadians talk about in winter besides hockey is the weather in Florida, LOL! - 2:24:13 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Hey, not all Canadians! I hate hockey. I do talk about warmer weather though, I hate our winters! I suppose some people do love that tan but here one can fake being rich, we have tanning beds and self- tanning lotion. - 4:14:21 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I do remember my grandmother never going out in the sun because lily white skin was fashionable. She wasn't rich but she liked to think she was classey(sp???). I lived on a farm and I had the sorry luck of being the oldest, I was tanned like a farmer. You know where the sleeves stopped 3/4's of the way up the arm and where the nose stuck out under the shade of the hat. - 4:20:23 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:A Canadian who hates hockey, watch out or they'll deport you to the states(a fate worse than death to some) where you can watch football in the fall; basketball in the winter and bsaeball in the summer.What's up with the pass words?Is that something I should know about? - 4:33:00 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Grant: man-made goes top-secret:DOUG-- Site problems. There are other less visible problems as well. I'm working on it with the hosting service. - 5:11:09 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Grant: Oh, Marlene asked me the other evening, so I figured something was up.Thanks for the update. - 5:22:05 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- No I just wondered if it was my browser since I got message to that effect. Yikes! I'm not much of a sports person period so I better be nice a pretend to like hockey so I won't have to put up with baseball, football, basketball or as my son use to call it, golfball. - 5:34:58 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: My brother in-law watches all these and all the preseasons and hockey too, plus now that cable has overseas sports;he watches those too.He even watches the players draft.Now that's more boring than a tennis match. - 6:41:08 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

IS THIS TRUE???.....:Looks like Hanoi Jane may be honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century". JANE FONDA remembered? Unfortunately many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our "country" but the men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who suffered her attentions. The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a former POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton". Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the man's shoe off-which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col's frenzied application of wooden baton. From 1983-85, Col Larry Carrigan was the 347FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 years in the "Hilton"-the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge...and handed him the little pile. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col Carrigan was almost number four. For years after their release, a group of determined former POWs Including Col Carrigan, tried to bring Ms. Fonda and others up on charges of treason. I don't know that they used it, but the charge of "Negligent Homicide due to Depraved Indifference" would also seem appropriate. Her obvious "granting of aid and comfort to the enemy", alone, should've been sufficient for the treason count. However, to date, Jane Fonda has never been formally charged with anything and continues to enjoy the privileged life of the rich and famous. I, personally, think that this is shame on us, the American Citizenry. Part of our shortfall is ignorance: most don't know such actions ever took place. Thought you might appreciate the knowledge. Most of you've probably already seen this by now... only addition I might add to these sentiments is to remember the satisfaction of relieving myself into the urinal at some airbase or another where "zaps" of Hanoi Jane's face had been applied. To whom it may concern: I was a civilian economic development advisor in Viet Nam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Viet Nam in 1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals." When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me, her former husband, Tom Hayden, answered for her. She was mind controlled by her husband. This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as "100 Years of Great Women." After I was released, I was asked what I thought of Jane Fonda and the anti-war movement. I said that I held Joan Baez's husband in very high regard, for he thought the war was wrong, burned his draft card and went to prison in protest. If the other anti-war protesters took this same route, it would have brought our judicial system to a halt and ended the war much earlier, and there wouldn't be as many on that somber black granite wall called the Vietnam Memorial. This is democracy. This is the American way. Jane Fonda, on the other hand, chose to be a traitor, and went to Hanoi, wore their uniform, propagandized for the communists, and urged American soldiers to desert. As we were being tortured, and some of the POWs murdered, she called us liars. After her heros-the North Vietnamese communists-took over South Vietnam, they systematically murdered 80,000 South Vietnamese political prisoners. May their souls rest on her head forever. Shame! Shame! ( History is a heavy sword in the hands of those who refuse to forget it. Think of this the next time you see Ms. Fonda-Turner at a Braves game). Please take the time to read and forward to as many people as you possibly can. It will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that "we will never forget". Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" Jane Fonda should never be considered. - 11:43:42 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: Hmm? Interesting bit on J.Fonda, is it true? Anyways, seems it was last week when I mentioned a book as probably worth reading. Well I read it, it was "Morals in a Backward Society". I mention that here in regards to your point that skin-color was\is an indicator of social status. In that book was a chapter on a beginning of morals. The village Peasant types were the bottom o'the barrel so they were wordlessly expected to do things for their betters. By wordlessly for example, a better would buy bread and without a word hand it to any nearby peasant who was "of-course" to take the bread to the better person's house. The point here is that the better's also held work in general as something done by a lesser type. One's complexion was the ostensive indicator of a better person. I was most impressed of the material read by the basic, primitive even, similarities at all supposed distinguished levels of human organization. The accounts in that book made the book "In Search of Excellance" seem like reading Disney's Snow White. It looks like work, racism and slavery are some simple indicators of animalism in the rudimentary human organism. - 16:20:45 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: I wanted to read that book- Morals in Backward Society, with certain expectations and while it was a hurried read, I was not disappointed. Why, well what we have in common is having read assorted anthro-books and set them down and were to then have some purported impression of morals at a primitive level in a primitive people. For example for me that was Turnbulls {seems like it was} The Forest People, of pygmys. But that didn't seem appropo to these times or this place. The morals book tho'was of a study done in 1954-55 in a town in Italy. The difference of the pygmy book and the morals book, the pygmys were happy. Those villagers were unhappy. They had several churchs and the responsible functionarys were not different nor in any significant way better than the laity. The laity apparently held no deep personal interest or needfully implicit connection to a creator. The church representatives were described as aggressive but generally viewed as seeking to merely exist. The point here is that religion had no moral relevance nor a meaning conducive of that quality for any reference. It is very true for any to say religion is not a unique source of or for a moral basis in human relations. I think that if anything is a basis for morality in and among the human creatures, it is understanding other humans. Too many tho', prefer to be comfortably numb to that endeavor, instead they're about like the 'Black-boy' joke. - 19:39:12 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:IS THIS TRUE???.....:Looks like Hanoi Jane may be honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century".***Gee i feel the same way about "Tehran Olie"(North+ Ron Reagan+ G. Bush).At least she didn't sell guns to people who burn American flags.And kill americans with them.***Carl: I haven't heard of her being Honored.I think she was duped into their propaganda photos.Hey Jessy Jackson visited our enemies too.As I recall Jane did visit our POW's in the North.If she didn't please them the North would have done squat for our POW,S.If she had been more politically savvy she might have gotten some of the POW's who were ill released.But history will honor North,Reagan, and Bush for selling guns to people who burn american flags.Oh and the money from drugs sold in the USA was used to support the contra's.Nice patriots, North,Reagan, and Bush are;aren't they. - 20:52:28 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - au contraire mon ami. Not everyone flocks to a warm place to get a tan, nor do all Canadians watch or talk hockey (in fact, very few of my own contemporaries either socially or professionally watch or play the game). - 23:44:18 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:we are a complacent bunch, aren't we? Two mass murders in two days, 3 famous athletes die within a week, and a terrible airline crash, and nary a word mentioned. What does this say about society these days? - 23:46:19 on 5 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Joette: I don't want to stereotype Canadians (as this american puts his guns in the Cadilac and drives to the mall),but I heard some Canadians on a talk show mention that the temp. of Florida is always reported.What of the airline crash, they just recovered the flight recorder and black box ,I think." Two mass murders in two days, 3 famous athletes die within a week," really where? - 3:55:58 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- The snowbirds are thinning out here in Canada. Only a few years ago many older people would have left by now to go to the south for the winter but since the dollar is so low and our health insurance only covers them for a short time down there now, many have either stopped going south or have shortened their stay. If I had the bucks I'd be off to Arizona in January and wouldn't come back here until April but, alas, I'm mere trailer trash. So they did finally recover the black box. I suppose there is no word on the cause of the crash yet? I think Joette is referring to the gunmen in Seattle and Hawaii. - 5:10:18 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

Grant at media saturation:JOETTE-- There are tragic murders and fatal accidents every day, and lots and lots of people die. Only certain types of tragedy stories are marketable, I suppose, and only certain deaths are news. Complacent? Are we failing to be good media consumers? - 7:53:13 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

jaywilson--pro mori--:GRANT: Actually, we are excellent *consumers* of media; however, the contents are too often junk food for junk thought. Therefore, we need to be better _shoppers_. The 'news' stories to which you and Joette refer simply reflect our own fears--that's why they're so potent. Problem is, those stories aren't news after a short time--but we milk them for all they're (not) worth. We buy our own nightmares and wonder why we don't sleep so well. - 17:45:09 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT - whether we are good media consumers or not really isn't the issue. We should be outraged by reports of mass murders, don't you think? Instead of keeping our heads in the sand, shouldn't we want to find a cure for the ill that plagues society? A few years ago, the aforementioned would have been fodder for coffee break talk, nowadays such occurrences barely raise an eyebrow. Have we insulated ourselves to the point where we really don't care about the other guy? Is this form of evolution healthy? If nothing else, it's keeping sociologists and anthropologists employed. - 19:53:57 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - Payne Stewart, Greg Moore, Walter Payton. - 19:55:03 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene..can we change reality:JOETTE- Do you think there is a cure? In a large population there is bound to be a few nutcases so no matter what anyone does, they will still exist. The only controls we would have is to set up an Big Brother watchdog and I don't think we want that. To suggest gun control is also not a solution as anyone knows, if someone wants any type of weapon it is always for sale somewhere. I think we have to just live with the fact that some people spin out and there will always be a new virus, mechanical failures do cause accidents and sadly but inevitably everyone dies. - 22:58:38 on 6 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Joette: Oh no, Walter Payton he was so young.It makes one think of how life is so short. - 3:30:29 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Grant on a soapbox:"The ill that plagues society" is human nature, in my opinion, and there is no cure. Perhaps we as society can treat some of the symptoms if we understand them. Perhaps we (society) can exercise and take some vitamins. Realizing this is not equivalent to keeping our heads in the sand, is it? My point in regard to the media is that I think they are part of the problem. As individuals, are we in general trying to understand human behavior and cause-and-effect? No. We don't feel we need to. If you wish to talk about complacency, the media is selling complacency, and we are clamoring to buy it. We feel powerless to do anything about the problems, but the media offers us an out in the form of outrage and indignation on a spoon. Feeling we have done our part by experiencing the proper emotional reaction, we can move on to more pleasant things. Do I feel outrage upon hearing of mass murders? Truthfully, no. No more than I feel outrage when a large fish eats a small fish in my aquarium. What good would this emotional indulgence accomplish? Should I be pondering ways to alter fish behavior or should I work toward altering the situation in ways which prevent nastier manifestations of fish behavior? - 4:05:37 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- IMO You can keep the big fish in a tank away from the little fish. That should save the life of one little fish but of course if you were to do that with all little fish then the big fish would no longer exist. The little fish would likely multiply in hordes then they too would likely cease to exist because they would eventually run of of their resources and so on and so on.. We humans have our societial plagues but not too many of them really when we look at our numbers and compare our society to some of the past societies. Not too many big fish left as we can measure , what are we now, six billion...I don't like the sound of it either but if we're going to get the big fish idea out of our society then maybe we should think about controlling the number of we little guys. Many of the problems are created by resources being hard to come by, whether they be resources that are preceived to be needed or those that are actually needed. The fuel that feeds that need is fear and fear, contrary to popular belief, doesn't make we humans timid little fish but big hungry ones. - 5:37:43 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT - so it's the media's fault that you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself? Petulance aside, I made the statement about complacency because it's true, and it hasn't been ever thus. We don't have the tools to change things single-handedly, but this "it doesn't involve me" attitude is more prevalent now than it ever has been, and I think it's terrible. We should bury our heads in the sand just because we are tired of being informed? - 14:59:51 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Who said I don't give a shit about anyone but myself? Obviously there is complacency. My objection was that not wallowing in these stories here is not necessarily a manifestation of it. You never talk about murder and death of non-famous people here. Does that mean you don't give a shit? - 15:23:13 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Grant (fishy remorse):MARLENE-- I wish I hadn't said big fish and little fish. Aggressive fish would have better suited. Oh,well. Nice post, though. Fish behavior is what it is whether we like it or not, and so is human behavior. We can't change it, but possibly we can change circumstances in which physically aggressive behavior is manifest, such as those resulting in hopelessness and desperation (in humans. I don't know if fish despair). Maybe not. - 16:50:59 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Grant (jaywilson sees all):JAYWILSON-- An interesting topic, the media. You don't happen to have a recommended read or two? - 17:22:24 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Big fish, agressive fish, same thing. Agression can result in good things and bad. I agree that behavior can't always be contolled or even predicted. I think though when numbers become large enough, personalization is wiped out. Many of these people who go over the edge as a result of anger caused by not being considered as a person. Human emotion can be affected by many things, maybe the most devastating thing is not being recognized as a human. - 18:21:25 on 7 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: P.Stewart, liked his outfits other than that nothing, W.Payton relatively young at death I like football was sad. G.Moore????? - 15:44:06 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN01: O'er the weekend on a German TV news station I was netted by a G-religious report. Sounds like Germany has a religion tax all G-citisens pay. The manner of payment was not the discussion but it sounded like the G-citisens pay at the church turnstile! How the gov't added to the church coffers wasn't the concern so that point is unknown. It was interesting to me on serveral counts the taxation the first. The other point was when a G-clergyman referred to religion as a way human's communicate with one another. It was to brief for me but its acceptable to think the Germans probably have a distinct way of understanding that expression. Now in view of only the aspect of communication I can see how religion would serve some people as a mental filler. On this point, how many can be or have the time to learn and understand matters as did C.Sagan? Not many. But, I wonder if religious taxation would, in time, settle the religious problem as it is or may be in the USA? - 16:05:52 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN02: O'er the weekend also picked up a hard to find book titled "When God was a Woman". Its female author so far has presented the information, sadly, in a way that can be described as still in the air of the "Eve" syndrome. She does convey, so far, some interesting pieces of information. Of these the most interesting are that many storys and artifacts of the female deitys are available all over the world. I only just started the book, which I'm reading as well as the others I purchased. What happened to the female influence, well one of the probable answers appear at the Burning Times site. - 16:29:20 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

for Carl:..... - 17:13:28 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I couldn't agree more on the taxation of churches and other organizations that different churches hide their money in. In fact a tax prof from Aust. who at one time posted here, has been part of a campaign touring all of Europe to promote just that. On this book written by this woman and here "eve complex" would that book have been wriiten by Riane Eisler? - 17:33:17 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I'll bet you touched on a very keen subtle point on which many legislators hesitate and scratch their heads. How do they handle the "hiding" of regular moneys that the more enterprising types will attempt? Of religious taxation I can make out how it could be, as it ought to be, innocously viewed in order to startup that taxation process. - 18:42:45 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Just for starters, look at all the investments the vactian has ownership of...Churches these days can be compared to palaces, what do people need these for? - 18:55:12 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Seems it is Marilynn Stone, I'll check and get back to you 11\09. It is really mind expanding. It lets one recall and see one's prior images again, and its different. The author says all groups of ancient people held giving birth as a mysterious-like or unknowable thing. Ok, I can see and imagine that as true. In this regard, then a movie like 'Clan of the Cavebear' and even the book for example should have presented the idea that that woman was not being a revolutionary but that she was the leader. That the people she was part of didn't follow the male as their leader and decider but that the women did those things. But, good old xian upbringing and point o-view "had-to-show" that it was the guy who decided the lead character- the woman, was to be accepted. The author also said that she rejected the xian view of a god and also that with her writing she was not advocating a return for a female god. It seems that the author may be an atheist. I may have a better opinion when its reading is over. - 19:03:26 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think that's what started the whole jewish thing in the first place. Goddesses were worshipped well before any type of superior god figure. God was not what he is today in those days, he was a war god, god of rape, pludder and pillage. A god who gave dominance to those who followed him. God is still about dominance on the whole world scene but at home here he's sold as sugar and spice. We wouldn't want the people at home raping, pluddering and pillaging each other. - 21:42:29 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

jaywilson--better read than dead--:GRANT: Check out Neil Postman's _Amusing Ourselves to Death_ (1985) for starters; it's relatively recent and cogent. Gerry Mander's _Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television_ (1978) and Daniel Boorstin's _The Image_ (1961, reprint 1987) are also good--and provocative--if you can find them. Paul Fussell's _BAD: or, the Dumbing of America_ (1992) is yet another more recent offering along those lines. Let me know what you find and what you think. And thanks for asking; it's a pleasure to recommend books to you. - 22:24:18 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN03: Social consciousness, eh? At another chat site one o'the participants was sharing some HIV\Aids sites. I took some time to scan them may read more later. My gut reaction the emotion that seems weighty to any aids response can easily cloud what or how one may read and think. However, I have yet to read a piece that clearly explains the joining of whatever the problem may to the thing that is the human organism. We humans are basically just a sack of cells, each cell is composed of assorted things. I understand too that each cell does certain specific things which is in-accordance to its chemical makeup. So is that HIV\Aids problem, is it a thing different from the cellular makeup of the human organism? Or, is it a specific chemical or a stuff, something of a chemical that is unique to and in the human organism?** But then, I have also read that this 'problem' was a product of military research and its only intention was germ warfare. - 23:05:38 on 8 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- HIV is the virus which causes AIDS. I understand that there are different strains of this virus. Some people (not too smart people IMO) believe AIDS is caused by something other than the HIV virus. From what I have read that the virus is carried by other primates but it doesn't cause the immune system breakdown that it causes in humans. Today's medications, if taken early enough can prevent the multiplication of the virus in the blood. - 4:03:54 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- They all seem to be READily available, with maybe the exception of the Paul Fussell one. BTW, some of Fussell's other stuff looks worthy of a look as well. As always, your effort is much appreciated. - 5:58:12 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:JWILSON: A book I've heard to be a good read is "Hollywood versus the Aliens". I'll probably purchase it this coming weekend. One of the things I was told to be in that book is about the name "hollywood". Seems that back in ancient European times when witchcraft and sorcery was in society as is religion today, they held that wands could dispense magic. Those wands had to be made of certain trees and so on. For the construction of those magical wands one such wood was that of a "holly" tree or bush or whatever those things are. Ergo, of hollywood what one wishes for can be had! Neat, huh? - 15:32:23 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: that author's name is "Merlin" not Maryland. The dates and times she utilises, I find interesting, I think should be called unmanly. The only curio, she occassionally makes references to a people from the north. Still tho', its a fun read. - 15:43:39 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think I've heard of the book your reading, is it called _When God was a Woman_? If so, I understand it's not too much different than the _Chalice and the Blade_. That particular book was introduced here about four years ago by Melissa (do you remember her?). We started discussing it bu then Melissa left the discussion. Meanwhile NC and I had gone out and purchased the book. Then shortly after that NC left the discussion. No matter, she and I decided to do a discussion of the book by email. It turned out to be quite interesting really. We still keep in touch and discuss articles in the news. She was the one who heard about a piece of a comet destined to hit Manitoba this month. She heard it on a radio show in her area but I haven't found anything out about this guy who makes the claim. His name is Mike Russ and he's from Colorado, have you heard anything on him? - 16:00:09 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: In the USA some people want as a concern and issue as if its of and for the land, matters of religion. Of that some, the constitutional idea which they contend with is that of the indefinite article, "an" establishment of religion. The indefinitness of that passage has been taken to mean that there is a separation of "a" church and "the"state. That sure looks cut and dried to me. So as far as I can tell all discussion of a church's objective is and can be only a logical 'creation'. Of this view one may understand what that german clergyman meant when he said religion is a way for the human creature to communicate. The religious though seek to keep their particular interest- a godthing, before all people and the idea that I see them clinging to is with the notion of an a-priori. For the religious this notion must have been interpreted as that which intuitvely conveys matters which are objectively unknowable but nonetheless are subjectively knowable. But how does that fit with another idea that goes "nothing is real in all categories; everything is real in some category." - 16:49:14 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN01: If the religious fly with that idea, above, that can appear to be an imposing impressive, lofty even, kinda' idea! The hangup if one understands this topic is in the empirical and probable. While the intuitive puts one in a feel good state o'mind, what gets done if everyone feels good and is at one with nature? Some counter-points of reference ought to be available for consideration when some effort appears, such as the religious in the USA takeup for their particular static interest. I ran into a thought that I liked as an example for the maintennance of the idea of a separation of church and state. Its of Euclidean stuff but it goes: "Or if Euclidean conceptions are made definitive of space and hence criteria of "the spatial"- as they might be- then such an a priori determination must be accompanied by our preparedness to regulate any divergence of presented phenomena from Euclid to some other category- to interpret them, for example, as physical refraction of light or as optical illusion." I read this and the thought hit me that here was a line of thought, a process of thought supportive of the USA constitution. O'course I ain't certain but it makes one wonder. - 17:25:19 on 9 Nov 99 GMT

jaywilson---hooray for Hollyweird--:CARL: In Miami they lie on the sand and look at the stars; in Hollywood they lie on the stars and look at the sand. - 4:27:37 on 10 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:Okay peoples, let's say be pick a subject and discuss it whether it be the errancy of creationism or what have you??!!?? - 5:01:36 on 10 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Of that book I read, its information ain't bad. I seem to be seeing, however, either a tale for a race or the tongue in cheek wonder is it just racism from a female perspective? I seem to find such presentations, racism, in about all matters of human endeavor. The view I see and think I must accept of human endeavor, racism and religion it appears are the fundamental motivations for human deeds. The author did refer to a quote that sure spells out to me why religion is only a special-thing human endeavor. The quote was from a Sheila Collins "Theology is ulitimately political. The way human communities deify the transcendent and determine the categories of good and evil have more to do with power dynamics of the social systems which create the theologies than with the spontaneous revelation of truth from another quarter." This idea conveys a true account of that stuff as far I understand things. I think it is obvious that humans are the only thing that can be and are responsible for being moral or immoral. Religion? I think not. - 16:00:10 on 10 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Interesting article about the Canadian schools. A jew protests that he paid for his offspring's education all the while paying some kinda tax[?] in Ontario that becomes available to private religious schools. It looked as tho'the religion was a catholic kinda'school. The protestor appealed to some UN sanction or some such declaration that seems to concern an equal treatment of all recognised by the UN types. Is this true? {p.s. the article read was rushed, errors are here} - 22:55:43 on 10 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I'm not sure about the story your posting on. Many religious schools here in Manitoba are funded by our tax dollars but then again schools are a provincal responsibility. Maybe Ontario is also starting to fund these schools. Since the funding started here, you wouldn't believe the number of jesus schools that have been created. But there are also jewish schools and I think some islamic ones too not to mention the aboriginal ones. - 3:03:50 on 11 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:More than likely, I'm the oldest person here other than Papasam but I know I'm getting up there after watching the Ed Sullivan rock and roll shows tonight. I remember seeing each and everyone of those shows! Such memories! And that Janis, one of a kind... - 3:06:47 on 11 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:MARLENE, GET THE CHANCE TO READ THE BOOK? Been gone the past few days! - 4:18:10 on 11 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- NO! You haven't given me the right name or the right author, I can't find it!!! See if you can find it on the net then type the address in the URL box below and click on add. - 5:02:01 on 11 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: a follow-up allows a better read, the issue that was being responded to was viewed as one o'human rights. It was compound problem for Canada because it also said, Canada was a world leader of tending to human rights. That hit me as odd. Religion and its superstitious link, how is that a human right? - 16:32:32 on 11 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I suppose they are zeroing in on the right to freedom of religion. Point is, if religion were kept out of the school system altogether, we wouldn't be running into these problems. School should be a place of learning, not a place of worship. Families shouldooops! BTW the last post was from me. Looks like that post didn't turn out for some reason. The last sentence said that families are responsible to teach myths if they want to not a teacher. - 0:07:22 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:Humm..either my browser is acting up or something with the net. - 0:09:12 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:I found the book in a library. Don't know if it is on a web page but I'll keep an eye out. Name and author I gave you is correct. - 2:36:31 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

What's the point, they teach the myths of evolution, one holds no more proof than the other. - 2:40:05 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:Was that last post yours Ricky? If so, why do you call evolution a myth. There are hard facts in favor of evolution. Even most churches accept that we have evolved. What do you disagree with and on what basis? - 4:24:44 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:TIMID POSTER-- Religion is emotionally dealing with that which we are unable to comprehend. Therefor, some will be more religious than others. Obviously you are quite religious. - 14:30:58 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: "No more proof than the other" that looks like simple thoughtless exasperation. - 16:34:35 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL - So what do you think of the book your reading? Eisler was of the opinion that god displaced the fertility goddess who at one time was THE major god/goddess. What about this author? - 20:04:13 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN01: While reading around I ran into the following bit of information. The reference of "atheism" has probably been around for at least as long theism. I read that there was a word traced back to India that referred to an idea of matters that were out of sight and had a correlate out-of-mind term. The idea was the "transcendent". The word the ancients used for that idea was "Astika". Interesting also, it may mean one who accepts the authority of the vedas. The contrary term was "Nastika". This term referred to one who didn't believe in a transcendent world. Also, it means one who does not accept that authority of the vedas. What am I up to? Well, in a book of human migration- in antiquity, I read that earliest recognisable forms of religion, now known as xian, could be traced to India. The words above are very old words and according to assorted historical accounts they didn't back then mean or convey the idea of a god as this word is know today. So, is that religious connection far-fetched? Or, are the findings of those words a mere coincidence? The first idea of transcendence was rejected as meaningless, I guess to one's existence. Today's atheist still rejects the word g-o-d on the basis that it too, is a meaningless sound. Just something else to ponder. - 21:31:51 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I'm unsure of what the author wants to tell. Some of the timelines appear acceptable and on some parts it gets nebulous. It "started" just fine the author was presenting an account, a genuine point of view. When done maybe then I'll see how the story pieces fit together. I'd really rather not fill-in any blanks. - 22:50:54 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:There is as much evidence for creation as there is for evolution. There are several facts that suggest the earth as being a young earth rether than one of millions of years old. Read the book I suggested and you'll find it quite interesting. It explains the cannonization of the books that made it in the Bible and why they were chosen. The "DNA" process is enough to convince me it didn't just happen by luck. Millions of strands, all having to be in exact order to work, someone had to arange them suckers, they didn't just fall in place by fate or luck. Anyway, read the book. Would like to see some hard facts that the earth just evolved! - 23:08:01 on 12 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Now this is what this discussion is about! I still can't find the book you suggested but then again, you've not likely read many of the books I have. Starting tomorrow let's discuss this evolution vs creation topic point by point and piece of evidence by piece of evidence. I'll use what I have learned from what I have read and you use what you've learned which should be still fresh in your mind as you've just done a report on the book. This doesn't have to be an argument by any means. Just a battle of ideas. ?????? - 4:22:39 on 13 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:So Ricky...do you agree? - 1:50:04 on 14 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:Sure, I'm game for a debate without it having to be an argument. - 3:25:21 on 14 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:Okay Ricky, great! Start on a piece of evidence. This can take a long time because I'll have to do some rereading to respond etc. but..hey..it's better that talking about the weather. I'll try to post something as soon as possible on whatever you post. BTW, I think it's when people get overly defensive with their ideas that they get angry when some one finds a flaw with them. Mostly though the people who are presenting the ideas have it in mind that they can actually change the mind of those who they are presenting them to. When they don't succeed with their assimilation process then they become angry. I don't expect you to think like me, nor do I think you expect me to think like you. This could be fun I think and maybe we can both learn something. - 4:08:49 on 14 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:RICKY - you say that you believe that DNA had to be put into place by "someone", and that it just didn't happen. Now, can you tell me this: Your god came from nowhere, was formed out of nothing, right? Where would he get the knowledge to come up with something like DNA? Of course, he wouldn't have referred to it as such, as the name attached to this part of science is man-made, but why would he/she/it let humans just keep looking for it throughout the ages? Why wouldn't it be evident before the 50's? And if your god did put DNA into place, why? What possible good would it have done him/her/it? It's easy to say that something was created, but let's look at the how and why of the creation. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do. - 21:20:39 on 14 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:You tell me, how do you get life from nothing? Before the existence of man, animals, living organisms, etc. there was nothing. How did life evolve? Where did life come from? You just don't rub two rocks together and get life from it. I can't explain God's being, nor His perfectness. Hard to comprehend eternity but if something last forever, it is eternal. God has always been and will always be, thats kinda hard to comprehend, ever for me, but I have enough sense to know even the bio of science itself will tell you that you have to have a living organism to make life of any kind. - 4:14:44 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- So the topic is "did god make DNA'? I just logged in and I'm totally wiped so I'll post on your post tomorrow. - 4:40:14 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:RICKY: maybe rock is a lifeform? Maybe thats how organic life kicked off? Maybe the organic is just a lesser more unstable form of the inorganic lifeform? - 19:03:03 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:If life comes from rocks, it rejects all the laws of science. - 20:36:10 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:so you accept and understand science RICKY? - 11:13:41 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Here's my response to "did god make DNA?"--If I had no other clue as to how life originated then I would maybe consider something supernatural such as the creating god. But evidence points toward a more natural process of the evolution of life. I think you've heard of Stanley Miller experiment of making a primordial soup using what was present in the ancient atmosphere, methane and ammonia. He zapped it an electrical charge and voila..amino acids and other organic molecules formed. Proteins are the building blocks of life and they are made up of DNA and RNA. So life did begin with inert matter. Simple natural biochemistry, not anything supernatural. - 22:30:28 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Darwin:The Campus Freethought Alliance and Young Freethinkers Alliance have launched an internet-based petition in response to the recent attempts by education authorities around the country to remove evolution from science classrooms. An increasing number of school boards are seeking to remove sound scientific theories, such as evolutionary theory and cosmology, from science curricula. If you are interested in adding your voice to ours please visit the below website and sign the petition, which will be submitted to the relevant educational authorities. Thank you! http://www.campusfreethought.org/sos/ - 23:00:53 on 15 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- PS. Please post an argument to the above. - 4:20:42 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

god:i must exist. if i didn't exist you could not say may name for me to not exist. there is no way around me! - 7:50:15 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:god- you exist just like the blue fairy exists, only in the minds of a believer. - 13:11:30 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: I'm sure that was supposed to read "..my-name.." that is interesting how all it takes that is required is a name for existence. If the trick is just to have a name or be named, an IPU then is. To further regard that simple rule or point of view, then too, would there be a way around anything else that would be or that could be false. Whatever becomes of truth in or for such a mind? - 17:11:36 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

Steven :ANY<<>> Am I crazy or was this site down for quit some time? I have been checking for about 2 weeks it seems but the URL was in a 405. Oh well, its back i guess. Hello everyone, long time no chat. I got to run a couple of mormons off crying last weekend, it was great fun. - 21:09:48 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: hello again, how have you been? - 22:22:52 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:Seems MARLENE was having problems making contact also. I've been getting in and out just fine, nothing unusual here. - 22:25:06 on 16 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:HI STEVEN- Long time, no hear! The site has been okay for me. Ricky and I are supposed to be comparing notes. I hope he hasn't disappeared again on me. - 0:03:13 on 17 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Some number of days ago someone's post seemed to me to be saying, we lacked socially relevant concerns. So I wagged a finger at the HIV/AIDs and how it seemed to lack a distinctive meaning comprehensible to the human creature. I had not, at that time read anything that informed me how it was that the AIDs thing was a real concern for anyone as myself. Up to now I have seen in a book{I seem to recall} that said it was linked to an military like biological-war experiment. They tested it on a specific group, the gay people. Such special tests by the military aren't unknown rare deeds for there are examples. MARLENE mentioned the african monkey "tale" and for me such storys always have to be held away until further review can be acted out. I just read a piece, an article that was probably composed in such a way that as o'today I can see a general relevance o'this AIDs problem. Several of you now n'then refer to the biological similaritys of the monkeys and the human. What is it, 97% the same? AIDs is not a monkey to man kind of link. The problem is the monkey that is the man and the man that is the monkey, that 97% that is the same, is this why it is said that its not just a "gay-problem"? - 16:07:13 on 17 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN01: So why the sudden worm-turn on the AIDs matter? The now understanding, right or wrong, of the AIDs thing was linked to an account of the early biological warfare I read of in the book "Guns, Germs and Steel". The Europeans- that book said, as they spread out traveled over the world they took with them the biologic-stuff of the germs which they'd developed immunities that they'd picked up from the animals they ate and lived with. That is an example of a simple human to human problem that began from an animal to human. Monkeys tho'are biologically very like humans and all tho'to call a human an animal is as to mistakenly but casually call a cube a square, the AIDs problem can affect either. That would explain how or why the AIDs thing is not just a "gay-problem". The article said that a cure may be, still available with the early experimental data that mistakenly launched the now a problem of AIDs on the human creature. Will see where this leads. - 19:37:07 on 17 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:Marlene, I agree that life in its early stages, developes by proteins ,matter, ect, but Miller with his bar of soap may have produced or better accumilated various types of living organisms in his experiment, but his bar of soap had no, has no, is no form of life. It takes life to produce life. If life just "pops up" and the earth was millions of years old, why hasn't life poped up since man's existence for him to record such super happenings. The bar of soap is like a pig poop. You can put it in a pan, add water, sun light, or anything else, and you might even see mold or other sites form on it, but it will still be pig poop and it will not come to life. - 20:41:43 on 17 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Bar of soap??? It was chemicals Miller used and an electrical charge. It was the same things that were common on the earth millions of years ago. Viruses are relatively new to the life process. Man or primates have only been around for a few million years, it tooks millions upon millions of years before the first proteins were formed by the process Miller used and millions upon millions of years more for them to evolve into a very simple lifeform. - 0:18:53 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think some of the first people in North America to contract the HIV virus maybe did belong to the gay community but in places like Africa, where the virus is believed to have originated, both men and women were equally plagued with it. Now in North America both sexes are also afflicted. So far, the virus is believed to be spread from person to person through body fluids. Many people asssociate this virus with only sexual activites but it also can be spread though blood and blood products. - 0:31:32 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

You'll:LikeThis - 11:45:37 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Wow! So the flood happened! or a flood happened. Who tires first, a theist or an atheist? It looks as though the religious adherent could go on and on, after all their tale of a creator is of a thing out of sight and they say that thing is also unknowable. This state o'mind surely appeals to the unlearned, thoughtless, those who give-up and those who simply want. Some of the learned can see that their want and need can be or might be satisfied by those in that state o'mind. The others, well they probably tire of the choices they can make and simply click-off their capacity o'mind to continue to choose and decide, and then, well a godthing didit. Atheism just as easily falls into a similar mind set, the probable reason for that is its contiguity connection to theism. Perhaps actual atheism has no link to theism? An atheist does not need to discuss any supposed or asserted aspect of a supernatural thing. There is this world and to like it is physically and mentally healthy for one's brief time of existence. That should be the objective of communicating things to each other. Whats is this all about? Well, I routinely cruise thru'assorted A-chat sites and they seem to be drying up. And, I still see the same redundent religious positions being posted that I saw back with my first visits here. The religious have nothing new to say and they are happy in that state o'mind. To prevent that as best I can, for example, I tell my youth baseball teams that if they can be happy loosing, that that is sick. The religious "adherents" strike me as losers in this game of living. The few still functioning A-chat sites need to must redirect refocus on a better objective than arguing against the nothing of theism. Thats a thought for this site. - 16:40:49 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

Adam (dorm)ant:IS NOT THEE THE "IST", THEIST? Well, I still can kick god's ass, even from the Pacific Northwest. Howdy everyone. Finally got a chance to get online from my new digs at Prairielaw.com So, what's been happening? - 18:14:05 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:HI ADAM- Good to hear from you. How do you like the west? Did you get a chance to meet Grant? - 18:32:50 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

I'm Batman! Get it? Adam-West? HAR!:Hey M, liking Seattle just peachy; getting used to all the rain. I still don't have my furniture as my movers are consumer fraud artists. May have to prosecute them. Stuff I don't have include all my sacred works of Suess. Can't keep up with all the Blue Jay moves. Why don't they just swap franchises with someone? As for Grant, well, he hasn't called or nothin'. So, it appears that everyone on Egyptair 990 can be added to the enormous list of people killed by religion, the largest such category in the history of mankind. Allah deserves one BIG ass-whooping! - 22:57:59 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

Adameaculpadam:THAT SHOULD BE SEUSS! Sorry, oh holy of hat-holies! - 22:59:23 on 18 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Holy co-pilots, Batman, I'm thinkin someone allah didn't like must have been aboard that jet. Seuss may kick allah's ass to xtian hell but Corny is THE ass-kicker. - 0:24:43 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think we've talked about the flood around the Black Sea area before here. Sure it makes sense that a flood did happen in the area at the time but it still gives no evidence of a global flood such as is described in the bible. Also I'm sure more that Noah escaped from the area. Of course in them days, they likely thought that the area they lived in was the world. - 0:30:01 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

ADAM Hopping Mad:...And I'm sure Noah had two kangaroos, two mountain lions, two pandas, two polar bears, two emperor penguins, two kimono dragons, two Western coyotes, two Malagasay mandrills (am I making my point yet?) on board. - 2:07:56 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

Grant (rain?):But weren't you supposed to call me, ADAM? How 'bout we meet for a beer or something; sit by the door; have an excuse to leave ready... well, I'm sure you know the drill. :-) - 3:19:20 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

jaywilson--well, I'll be ADAM-ed--:Hi, guy; I'll bet Noah had more t4:12:39 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:Hermaphrodite? Wasn't she the Greek Goddess who said "We don't need no stinkin' men anyway?" - 14:26:34 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

jaywilson--Venus envy?--:GRANT: You're thinking of Amazon-com, in reference to her live-in SO, Ben-Gay. - 22:14:18 on 19 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- I thought we were going to have a discussion???? - 5:02:20 on 20 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:Well....this is boring!!! - 2:01:52 on 22 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Well, o'er the weekend I saw the flick "Dogma". Not a bad movie if the price is right I'll buy it. I am now o'the mind that I ought to find and view the movie "Stigmata". If anything I am impressed that a movie for the public would be allowed which asked such questions and refers to matters of such potential issues. O'the latter, the audience I was part of grew quiet as the movie's dialogue mentioned the bible's anti-female views as a terrible wrong. The audience regularly laughed at the many idiotic points of xian stuff, but they seemed lost at some of the religious historical points. I am pretty sure they missed the points made of other religious ideas. - 16:52:33 on 22 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I'll check that one out (just have to get the VCR back from my daughter who seems to be an expert at extended borrowing). - 20:02:49 on 22 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Have you noted the typical influx of religious articles for this time of the year? Gads those Indians must be goin'squirrely about now. The pope hisself is goin'ta India to bring the word o'god\jc to them there. Those kinds of religious xian folk really got some nerve. As if xianity is a real thing, heheh! The only real thing about it, it is a bigtime ongoing money concern. Are the Indians really in need of a spiritual boost? Things of and about India here in the states are difficult to locate. Heck I had to wait a coupla'days just to a hold of a book on aryanism written by a Indian fella. What is interesting about it so far, ya'ask? - 20:41:09 on 22 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I ask????? - 0:15:08 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Open: Has anybody read the new Skeptic mag: millenium madness? Well besides the year 2000, it has a chilling article about the creationists 5 year plan to remove radiosotopic dating.These cretins will stoop to any lows to force their quackery on the general population. - 4:14:14 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Carl: that Pope is sending a lot of those missionaries in harms way, but he had state of the art protection.That's more than I can say for those saps who are going to get it from the Hundus.The pope is acting in a selfish and irresposible manner in ordering those people to provoke unrest by preaching a unwanted religion. - 4:19:56 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- No I haven't got it yet, likely next week when I get into the city. I find it asinine when people with even half a brain insist on being dull-witted enough to throw out solid scientific knowledge and let the fabrication of myth comfort their insecure little psyche. Well lets hope they don't succeed! Are we entering another Dark Age?!?! - 4:37:12 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene (likely because nothing fails like prayer):DOUG and CARL- Isn't it contradictory for a religious man like the dope to protect himself with bullet-proof cars etc.. Mother T herself felt that good ole god would protect her. All the tribes of Israel figured god protected them. Why does the dope not have faith in his god? - 4:41:16 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I find myself thinking, unfortunately, that reason for the action of exclusiveness, is somehow linked to those old long-ago fashioned values of religion and racism. Here, it'll be important to stave off any polarising reflex-action that typically occur on such matters. Lets hold first, that religion, as it was in the early days o'the human organism, it was their epistomology, o'yesterday's beginning, today's immediate and their future predictables. This sure appears to be why so many folks still report that they believe-in a whatever supernatural.** Racism enters as a parameter and paradigm of and for those who share that same epistomology. Anything outside that'bubble', is foreign and threatening to their, 'bubble'. For anything to get inside or become part o'that bubble certain things of It must be rendered nonthreatening.** So in the USA the bubble is composed of judeo-greco-roman epistomologies. This appears, at this time, to be heavily weighted by the xian say-so-myths and a aryan myth. Of this aryan thing, I have read that term and can at other times pick up on its very implication in books o'law, engineering, math, biology and supposed philosophy. The one immediate example o'this bubble I now have concerns the word 'avatarianism'. The base word is avatar- some embodiment on earth of a diety, per a USA dictionary. My offspring's female sweetheart is a sikh from India gave me an article that says sikh types hold that a diety will Not Take a body form on earth. That made me at least think, hmmm?** Of the pope's visit, that ought to be called an attack of genocide. That ol'boy means to upset disrupt and destroy how those parlicular human organisms know this world. - 16:38:16 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Now that the creationists have found an inroad into US schools through the non teaching of science, it frightens me. What else is to be excluded in the name of ignorance.It is the utmost of hypocricy to say that our children are failing in science and math to cut out large chunks of the subjects that they need most.Middle class america won't stand for lesser education, that is our only hope. - 17:22:45 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: gee you mean the WWW and WCW won't really satiate the young ones? Video games won't really work as a baby-sittin' gimmick? Religiously oriented day care centers won't make the young ones from becoming thrill-killers? Prayer in school do you mean its just promotes wishful thinking? - 17:33:23 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Keep us posted on those Ayran myths. Many I suspect are rehashed in christianity. Keep in mind that the christian god hasn't taken human form on earth but sent his son (who btw is also he, confusing that xtianity..). From what I understand of the Hindu religion is that the gods do take on human form. Maybe I'm wrong??? - 22:26:28 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: As I continue to read the aryan book that was the source for idea that those indians were going squirrely at the popes visit. The author says that the english influence was so detrimental to their ways, that some of the indians most important ideas were upset. Some of the hindus belief system go along with the definition I presented. Others do not because it is a link to british colonialism. The sikhs- the sweetheart says, didn't go along to get along with the outside influences. I suspect the definition I saw that you are aware of represents a western bubble retreated neutered account. After-all, the western world did not directly utilise any thoughts from India when composing for example, the USA constitution. Mind ya'now, all of my thinking is in the paradigm of the western civilsation, history of places like China India and even the Soviet Union are\is little or none. But I was perplexed that ideas from these lands are not commonly available. But heck, things said by the greek, Judeo and Roman materialist are not commonly available. So, "they-say" this is the land of freedom? - 22:51:35 on 23 Nov 99 GMT

Graffiti.....:A fuck is a fuck. ....A wog is a wog. ....To fuck a wog, is a waste of sprog. - 11:30:32 on 24 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: So on the matter of freedom, yesterday I read and article on the progress of DNA stuff and that researchers have determined something about DNA stuff, via computer technology, to the number of 1-billion. They say in about 5 years they will know what the remaining 2-billion DNA thing are. What that makes possible, another party said, was chip-implants and everyone- humans at first, could then be part of a "Matrix". Is this freedom? Of religion, will that chip-implant effectively end it? - 17:07:28 on 24 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Since we atheists seem to be in the minority, I hope those chips aren't going to be programed to wipe out non-godliness! I won't say non-wishful thinking because I do a lot of that even though I'm an atheist. BTW, have a happy Turkey Day! - 22:08:27 on 24 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Carl: prayer in school, what a waste of valueble school time. In this day and age every minute counts and I can't see wasting it on prayer. - 23:15:09 on 24 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:D&M: I was thinking that the chip would disclose that the need for a father-figure or god was no longer be needed. It would clearly mean the human organism really is just electrochemically driven and that chip thing would become evidence of such. Hence, my query is this freedom? Further is the human critter really a free-thing? - 23:28:34 on 24 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Carl: Oh yes the alpha male, is jesus the alpha male for xians.You bet, just like all those primates in the jungle. Yes I think religion will effectively end as more and more people become aware of just what religion is.As far as knowing Human DNA being the end of freedom, nay.The religionists will treat it like some treated blood types and transfusions, ungodly.Ignorance like this will only hasten the inevitable god things demise. - 3:03:52 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG and CARL- I don't know if people are becoming more aware of science or more absorbed by the supernatural. To me it seems to be the latter actually. Look at guys like Josh, not intellectually stupid but emotionally so. Paying homage to one's emotions these days seems to be much more weighty than a more objective view of the world. - 3:12:30 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:Don't you think the publics infatuation with supernatural things is wanning?These fads only go on for 3-4 years until the market gets saturated.Look at fundamentalism a few years back ;now it isn't worth a bucket of warm spit in the media.Right now education is the big thing; safe and scholarly.And to the sorry sack of S--t (creationism) that stands in it's way. Creationism and all forms of religous ignorance are going to be steam rolled by politicians and parents in the mad dash for their childrens quality education. - 5:22:01 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

How can you call prayer a waste of time? It's better to spend time in prayer than to teach classes on having safe sex. Now days, kids go to school and bring home condoms. They should be taught to keep it in their pants! - 6:41:12 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Grant: Too shy to use even a phony name?:Lets see if I understand this: A person, any person at all however humble, may at any time take an audience with the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the universe and request that said creator alter eternal plans, which said person doesn't even pretend to comprehend, in order that said person gain some advantage, and perhaps this would not be fair advantage, over his or her fellows? And this all powerful creator fellow will consider such requests? Said person obviously would have little to offer this creator other than praise and supplication. So, in effect, a person may offer praise and supplication to the all-powerful creator of the universe with the hopes of gaining preferential treatment in return? I say go for the sex education classes, which you dishonestly represent as "classes on having safe sex". - 15:11:52 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:to noname:it's better to have safe sex that to waste it(time) on prayer.Yes the clergy should keep it in their pants not on and in our children, so much for the power of prayer. - 18:14:43 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene..taught to keep it in their pants..what channel are you receiving?!:AGAIN- NOTHING FAILS LIKE PRAYER!!! Imagine praying instead of using a condom to insure one doesn't contact an STD..Really if the no namer above had no choice but to have sex with a person who he/she knew had an STD..would they use a condom or use prayer. Damn science inventing condoms anyway! The STD's were divinely created to help his creation suffer, for heaven's sake! I also would imagine it would hamper the xtian god's plan of killing off his creation with disease. Maybe even hamper his divine plan of overpopulating the earth with his creation so he could watch them all plead with him to send them some manna. Then because feeding them wasn't in his plan anyway, he say to his creations, call KFC damn it, I'm busy in the lab at the moment... - 23:14:52 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I don't think it is wanning, unfortunately. I think no matter how educated one becomes, I think wishful thinking is dominating more and more all the time. In fact I think to the left of the line between science and science fiction will be the new wave in religion. Also I fear the new psychology is also going to be the songs of this religion. Overindulgence of our emotional makeup has thrown objectivity out IMO. No more big picture viewers, just those who like to zoom in. - 23:26:25 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene..a little jealous:BTW- HOPE YA'LL DOWN THERE HAD A GREAT TURKEY DAY!!!!! - 23:27:38 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene..a little jealous:BTW- HOPE YA'LL DOWN THERE HAD A GREAT TURKEY DAY!!!!! - 23:33:13 on 25 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Why thank you.I did have a very nice turkey indeed! Oh I think religion will evolve into personnal and the non-organized type. Sort of like, pick and choose your supersition.The fundies are bucking the trend, you have to undestand how religion pads their numbers down here in the states.Church attendance has always been stated at about 40% of the adult population.Now a couple of years ago a new study said it was more like 20%( that's high balling it).Where I live there can't be anything close to 20% attendance on a regular basis, more like 10%. I've scouted out churches in my area and have to say, that by the adult populations of the cities and towns 90% of the population sleeps in Sundays.Oh, I also checked out the catholics and fundy types who go on Saturday.The JW's are a tiny % and wouldn't fill a class room.It's amazing, because this urban legend has been used and used again to bolster, pushing religion in our society. - 1:55:39 on 26 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- In this province of our country it's a little different. The born agains are on a roll. In fact there seems to be more very expensive churches going up here all the time. The new one I mentioned about a month ago , living waters something, are hosting some of the upcoming promise keeper rallies. I still think these churches should pay tax! You should see this building! Of course it houses a school that my tax dollar is paying for and that pisses me right off. - 4:33:11 on 26 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- When did that new Skeptic come out? I went to the city today and either it was sold out (which I doubt) or they haven't gotten it in yet. The new SI was there but not Skeptic. I have been getting a little disappointed in SI lately so I didn't buy it. I likely will though next week when I pick up the Skeptic. - 4:37:47 on 26 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:The new Skeptic was on the shelf last week end.I guess it does matter from what part you come from.The fundies have made some inroads, but there are failures in my area too.They seem to be targeting new immigrants, especially from Asia and Latin America.The xian catholic coalition was a big flop, the catholics wanted nothing to do with the fundies other than the abortion issue.In my neck of the woods fundies are still looked upon as wacked out freaks in double knit suits. - 6:40:41 on 26 Nov 99 GMT

THE ZING..:..has gone out of this page. - 15:06:21 on 26 Nov 99 GMT

THE ZING.:a day later - 14:30:29 on 27 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:Well, why not contribute, PASSING THROUGH? Do something about it! This aint television. - 17:59:05 on 27 Nov 99 GMT

No, you better go and sit in on one of them. That is what they teach now. How to have safe sex. There is no such thing. Reason for so many abortions today is because of un-wed sexual relations. Fifty years ago, dating was a serious thing. Guys would go pick up girls with guidelines to follow. Not saying there weren't hanke-panke back then too, but most in general were taught good moral standards they followed. "That's what I'm talking about." Those standards have been done away with and replaced by "when you do it, do it safe" Need to read the Bible, then go by it. - 3:48:50 on 28 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:NONAME- 50 years ago young people were having sex too. In fact 100 years ago and 1000 years ago. The bible didn't stop them then nor is it going to stop them now. It may enlighten you a bit to learn many abortions are being chosen by married couples. Also many abortions are done for the health of the mother whether she is married or not. I don't really understand your reasoning, on one hand you complain about abortions and on the other your against condom use. If we all went by the bible then we would be bonking our slaves and turning them and the children we had with them away when our spouses didn't approve of them. We would be setting mean ole bears after little children because they laughed at our baldness. We would be doing all kinds or loathsome things. No, the bible isn't the pillar of morality! - 4:29:57 on 28 Nov 99 GMT

Ricky:Marlene, How do you know that prayer fails? I believe in prayer because I've seen the results of it. You guys are really something. You can't stand it when someone differs from you but yet are so quick to bash them and call them stupid and label them with all kinds of names. One day maybe you'll open your eyes. Scripture states: "Don't cast your pearls before swine." Well, I give up on you guys. - 5:16:39 on 28 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Did I call you names? And why are you being so defensive? If you believe that your prayers are answered, great! I just can't believe that praying to an non-entity will accomplish anything. I have never called you stupid, infact unlike many other theists who come here, you don't come to preach but to learn about what we think and let us know how you think. I've have read the bible a number of times and I mean the whole thing, three different versions. I know the book but don't accept the supernatural part of it. To me it has value when it describes some history on the tribes of Israel and their war on other people in the Middle East. Otherwise the myth part is no different than Greek mythology or Roman mythology etc. Actually I would say I knew I was truly an atheist after reading the bible. Before I couldn't really make that statement. After reading the bible, I read the Quran, some Sanskrit and a lot of articles on other religions. Actually in search of the oldest religion in order to try to get down to the basic idea behind it. - 6:43:43 on 28 Nov 99 GMT

Father jaywilson, S.P.F., B.F.D.----:RICKY: Why didn't the Red Sox win the Series this year? Couldn't 200 fervent prayers at least have pulled EgyptAir 990 out of its dive? In other words, what do you know about prayer? MARLENE: You want the oldest religion? Sun worship. - 20:47:07 on 28 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:I read the news today, oh boy... - 4:11:25 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE "Police Constable Tom Tracey clubbed the man with an organ pipe and another parishioner forced him back using a large crucifix." It's a tragic story, but I can't help wondering if the parishioner was holding the large crucifix up like in vampire movies, or using it in a more down-to-earth manner. I'm not being entirely facetious. I wonder at what level religious beliefs really reside. - 5:08:32 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:FATHER JAY- The sun at least is a sensible object of worship. Since we humans aren't nocturnal creatures (at least some of us aren't), the sun was a welcome site. Our ancestors didn't need to invent boggie men, there were real creatures out there seeking us as their prey. As far as I can decipher, maybe our ancestors were wiser because they had to be. The only thing they likely prayed for was for the sun to rise, which it did every day. The sun didn't let them down like god does his followers. The sun didn't make any silly demands nor did it expect faith. - 5:57:33 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- SO! The cup is back in the east..hummmmm. - 5:58:56 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Guess they weren't praying hard enough or fast enough. Again, nothing fails like prayer. At least the church ornaments came in handy. Sort of like the candlesticks in the movies. - 6:01:07 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Zi:ng - 11:40:41 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: T-day was another day. I saw the movie "South Park" it isn't a child's movie nor is it a movie for a faint-hearted Canadian patriotic zealot. Is it a good movie? Well, its humor is harsh and hard, and while I laughed I don't see it as one I'll buy. It seemed to have some thoughtful points. Now that thanksgivin'is o'er and mithmas is next, what say we look for and report where the first religious apparition appears. Any wagers on what myth comes first jc or vm? - 15:56:00 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I see you've mentioned a reading aquaintence with sanskrit stuff. So far the book I'm now going over, pretty regularly refers to such writings. The author holds that it is very old and he inscribes that its actual age depends on one's western racial or religious, is it proclivity? The authors kind trace it back to about 4m+ and the oral nature beginning of such being undertood as older more ancient. Anyway I was figgerin'reading the Rigveda t'see what that might be like. I dare say it could be like the reading of the 'Santanic Verses', o'which I couldn't begin to figger out what the fuss and stuff was all about. It was a story, but was it a religious story, go figger! I might better understand the Rigveda in light o'the book I now read for it has spelled out the history and influence o'the words in it. I think also that I'll have another understanding of the Santanic Verses due in part to this book. Sounds like the Iranians may be an offshoot, of sorts, of the ancient Indians. - 16:38:06 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT - I laughed my head off at that news story. (tragic yes, but the report conjures up a scenerio right out of a Marx Brothers' movie) - 18:31:09 on 29 Nov 99 GMT

Joe: Hey, you guys up on your evolutionary theory? How does it relate to the so called "irreduceable complexity" theory which basically says there are some systems/organisms in the world which could not have evolved in small steps. They are either too interdependant, or only able to function fully formed - this of course leads the creationists (after they throw a block party to celebrate how clever they are) to say that there must be an intelligent creator. - 0:00:12 on 30 Nov 99 GMT

Grant: Hello, Joe.:It's an irrational argument. There are mounds of evidence in favor of evolution: Genetic similarities between species, physical similarities such as skeletal structures, similarities in function and structure of sense organs such as eyes, ears, etc., similarities in the makeup and function of cells, particularly specialized cells such as nerve cells, etc., not to mention the fossil record. To deny evolution entirely is to ignore direct physical evidence. To accept some evolutionary theory but not all is to make arbitrary subjective judgments based only on some kind of feeling for maximum complexity despite evidence. To accept all current evolutionary theory but claim intelligent design is not only making an ideological judgment without benefit of any tangible evidence, but is self-contradictory. Evolution is thought to be a proccess of random chance and trial and error. To say that an intelligent designer created life using random chance and trial and error borders on nonsense. The "irreduceable complexity" people are reasoning backward from a conclusion, an invalid practice which must by nature lead only back to the same conclusion, whatever it may be. It's the practice which causes people to try to change history to suit ideology. - 3:37:46 on 30 Nov 99 GMT

Doug:Joe: The problem with creationists of the ID (intelligent design) type like Behe ,is that their arguements start to fall flat on their faces once the research starts rolling in.Behe and Johnson sound reasonable enough until they come to conclusions without any scientific studies. My hunch is they want to keep it that way so as to keep the natives ignorant of the truth.As far as the "irreduceable complexity" goes, your heart is one.You can't live without a chamber or valve missing.A good book debunking Behe and Johnson is "Tower of Babel The Evidence against the New Creationism by Robert Pennock: mit press" - 4:57:59 on 30 Nov 99 GMT

Carl:POEM: Is not the morning freshness after a night's rain as a kind of sweetness one of the most exhilarating of living experiences? That rush of clean cool air in the lungs so charges the face and arms, washing over one's chest and down the spine, splashing cooly on the abs and down through the legs! Such moments are so rare the last time I noted such a moment was in my childhood. This morning that rush that experience happened on campus as I walked through a grove of redwood trees. The pathway the trees are set away from the trappings, and for some number of steps the trees the grass the water the air were upon my senses. Then it was gone, the exhaust of stuff blew it away. - 15:55:23 on 30 Nov 99 GMT