Marlene:JOETTE- I couldn't agree more but I still think the west will suffer as a result. Europe is not going to be happy with us when all is said and done. CARL- Yes, I think it is all about religion and culture. There are some pretty cruel humans out there. The Serbs are just some of them. What about places in Africa? What about the treatment of women in manymuslim countries, children in Pakistan and India, babies killed in China because they didn't turn out to be boys....as Darrel says, lots of shit goin on! - 4:47:12 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene in appreciation of fine literature:ADAM- Now that was damn poetic! You forgot the cockroach shit and rat tail scales. - 4:54:05 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene; the USA would try to manipulate Canada if Quebec separation from the rest of Canada.I honestly think they would try to have the Maritine Provices join the USA.And then destroy Quebec over the dispute over Labrador.The rest of Canada wouldn't care for the USA much but most politicians here would take advantage of it. Being close to the border with Quebec, I don't want to see it militarized.The Cia and Canada Feds. most likely have a plan to undermind any separation. - 13:51:15 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Grant :I'm having trouble believing this Kosovo stuff. What kind of barbarians are we? (all of us) Sometimes I think all that reason does for us is help us rationalize our nasty little instincts. - 15:11:34 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:CANADIANS: Since the WJC/newsmedia damage control reporting some folks I know are concerned that such 'control' can be enacted. So, being the curious type I've been diggin'around for assorted examples. Last eve a dredlock coiffured fella brought by a video that was tagged for its highly volatile scenes. Or, in other words the tag meant it wasn't a very moral show. The show was made in Canada starred Graham Green of 'Dances w/wolves'. The name o'the movie "Clearcut". It seemed to start as "a something" against deforestatian in Canada. It wasn't at all as graphic as the lethal weapon series, so what was the tag all about? However, it was very different, no heroes, still I thought it had and portrayed lot of symbolism. Ever see it? GRANT, I thought perhaps the movie addressed the matter of your query of our barbarism. Now, I ain't no green peace kinda'advocate. - 15:46:54 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: yea, on some o'the kid programmed morning radio shows they discuss- dare one call such, the matter you heard of and mention. That is probably an issue for some o'the oldsters in SF, if the newsmedia decide to make a play of that we'll see it or sure. Along this line, on a FoxNews show a retired FBI agent was asked what he found to be the most dangerous threat now facing the USA. the host offered a choice o'the muslims, china, crime in the streets. The exagent said it was the xtian rite wing. The agent said they are armed and 'lack education'. Geeze! whodda'thunk? - 16:19:21 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

test - 17:34:32 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:CARL - I haven't heard of that movie that you mentioned, but clearcutting is one of the big advocacy issues here in this great land of ours. How old is the movie? Graham Green attempted suicide not long ago, so was it an older film? - 17:38:48 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:A geography lesson - last night Canada consisted of 10 provinces and 2 territories....today, it consists of 10 provinces and 3 territories. It's amazing how some land claims can be settled diplomatically :o) - 17:40:38 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Joette :DOUG - I can't see why your country would want our Maritime provinces. There is little industry, and the waters around Newfoundland have been practically raped of any fish. It would just mean more land, but higher unemployment with no productivity. The rest of Canada is already supporting the majority of those provinces. And Quebec ain't going to seperate. One day soon the majority of that province are going to get fed up with the blowhards, and get rid of them. It's becoming a non-issue. - 17:45:09 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Adam The GODS MUST BE ANGRY:¨¨¨¨¨OK, so I have these GREAT seats for the one & only Mets v. Rangers exhibition game---my dream matchup---with flites and a hotel in Dallas, and they forecast thunderstorms Friday thru Sunday. Hey, god, YOU SUCK! - 17:57:14 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Adam CLEANLINESS IS, Well...:Marlene, sorry to hear about the condition of YOUR place.... By the way, Jo, that was a different word, pronounced like "MOWLED" with a short o. Look it up....Is everyone aware that the baseball opener on Sunday will be played in Monterrey, Mexico? Wish I was there. Hell, I'll be CLOSE. - 18:00:21 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:KOSOVO Stuff; unbelievable, the USA mucky-mucks are concerned that the "air force" will be blamed for FAILURE in the military action. People are getting killed and they are concerned about a finger pointing at the USAF? Somebody in that scenario has some serious problems of what is meaningful and of real value. But, what the heck, the USA thinks liars are acceptable. - 18:19:05 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :CARL <<>> you crack me up. Yes I think the situation possible could have been handled differently. WTF does this have to do with a trial that WJC won? Nada! It had no relevance at all. The concern is that the public will believe that the Serb offensive was started by the bombing, which it did not. Or possible you would like to move to Kosovo, and claim to be Albanian. It appears that you have a real problem with the fact that the president was found NOT GUILTY. It also appears that you have something to get 'over', IMHO. FYI, Americans have always known that their politicians, and every politician 'lies'. The situation in Yugoslavia is a mess, there is not a one hit perfect answer to the solution. Maybe you have an idea as to how this could have been prevented. Or possible you care little for the slaughter of civilians. Another thing you need to remember is how many nations NATO consists of. I am quit sure that the citizens in France, Germany, England etc. also know that their leaders are not perfect, and lie. Next, you can tell me that you have never lied, and if you say you don't or haven't, then you would be a liar, neh? - 18:43:53 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Joette;Their is a uneasy feeling here in the US that a unfriendly Quebec would be a threat to our national security.I personally don't see that.You have to remember that the US is resource hungry. Labrador has a tremendous wealth potential as does the coastal waters for gas and oil.Yes I know about the collapse of the fishing industry as we have the same problem from over fishing here.If it ever comes to a Canadian civil war the US would back Canada not Quebec.Even though our media doesn't say much about Canada, every other family Ilive around either came from Canada or has Parents who came from Canada.The ties are very strong in New England.From a Bruins fan, I don't know what would happen to the NHL.The Boston Montreal rivalry wouldn't be the same. - 19:03:06 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:STEVEN; never like liars, never have never will. As for the serb/croatian thing, a learned serb type said its a civil war. In another review of that matter, its portrayed as a religious war and it traces the religious faction all the way back to Constantine, also a liar like WJC is a liar. - 19:09:46 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: Lies and liars, are these one and the same? In the case of WJC they are, as one, so embodied. So it boils down to- have I lied? Well to get a body or two'tween the sheets some unbounded and thoughtlessly unrestrained claims were made. In a a zealous alcoholicly induced moment some sheer acts of an unrecorded heroic moment\account were uttered, and since then forgotten. This final point brings me to why its easier to simply say what of whatever instead of lying. It is such a waste of brain power to remember untruths. Unless your in a state o'mind as it appears WJC rests, and he obviously does not give a shit about anything, including that thing that he is. - 21:40:05 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - the thought of there ever being a civil war here in Canada makes me smile, really. I think Marlene might attest that we settle things over coffee and doughnuts at the nearest Tim Hortons. We have been listening to the Quebecois rhetoris for 30 years now, and Lucien Bouchard's whinings are starting to grate on everyone. Instead of worrying about it, I laugh at it now. Sure, a couple of years ago it came down to the wire, but at no time was there mention of any military action. Afterall, our military are federal, and so the forces would fight against those in Quebec who find it necessary to pick up arms (which in this case would include corn brooms and shovels). I am confident diplomacy and good sense will continue to prevail in our country. Actually, the government is far busier now settling Aboriginal land claims than they are dealing with Bouchard and his minions. - 22:44:15 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:STEVEN - I'm glad you mentioned that there are other countries in NATO. I believe there are 18 countries actively involved in this particular action. I have a friend there now, and I got an e-mail from him, and he is scared shitless. This makes it personal for me >:( - 22:46:58 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:ADAM - but they get such GOOD storms in Texas! - 22:49:20 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: New territory, aka, Nunavut? izzit? What if they find that there's a mountain o'gold there or sum such valuable thing? What then? - 22:59:36 on 1 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Joette; I was in Montreal in 1974 and all the english signs were spray painted out. We as english speaking weren't treated that well by the French speakers until they found out we were americans. Even though I speak a little French,the general atmosphere then was of total hate for all things not French. It was a time of the Nixion resignation in the states so Canada was a welcome relief. And I did meet up with some really nice French speakers in a little town outside of Montreal. My buddy went in the car to do the laundry and no one spoke english,to give directions.He had to come back and get me.We then had a pleasant afternoon and night as the guests of this little community. I find most people have it hard enough in their day to day lives, that they can't be bothered with issues such as that.Well I hope it's going to be alright, that's all we need is more conflict. - 0:53:13 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:ALL. Do you folks view the US as a "warmonger" - 1:19:02 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Joette (you'd never know by my name that I'm French, would you?:DOUG - you were in Montreal at a bad time. Rene Levesque was the first of the seperatist politicians, and he was really stirring things up. Actually, I remember as a very small child being in Quebec when Charles DeGualle visited, and the hue and cry was "Vive la Quebec, libre!". The language police are alive and well in Quebec, but they have learned that alienating the anglophone has dire consequences on their economy, so if you were to visit today, you wouldn't see any spray paint (nor any English for that matter), but the majority of the people would gladly speak anglais, especially in Montreal, as that is the most common language spoken there. - 2:28:30 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DARRELL - sing your national anthem, and then ask yourself that question. - 2:29:57 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

RON...--->GRANT...:You did it!!! It's beautiful. I'm so happy...I can finally kill my flex account. Yippppeeee!!! BTW, MM fans. I've made my move to Pittsburgh and you wouldn't believe the irony!!! I'm renting a converted CHURCH!!! I live in a CHURCH!!! It's has massive stained glass windows and 30' ceilings!!! It's a CHURCH!!! HA HA HA - 4:06:02 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:RON- Those are really neat places to fix up. Is there a lot of wood? The stained glass is a plus as long as it doesn't picture ole jesus or the vargin (as James calls it, lol) Mary. - 7:32:17 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:JOETTE, I contacted a 19yo young lady in Hungary on the internet yesterday. I asked her what she thought of America. She said that her country views USA as warmongers. Apparently we are a nation of wealth building an impotent military. We are so frustrated with the lack of an enemy that we go out in the byways and highways looking for others' conflicts, determine the "good guy" the "bad guy" and then fire up the jet turbines. We experiment with the new technology in real action. Is this how the rest of the world sees us? Would not this 19yo appreciate the help when HER family is being slaughtered? There is irony in all things, including MY life no doubt, but regardless, would not my teenage neighbor 5 houses down the street appreciate me stopping her daddy from beating her up? Would doing so, be cause for me to be suspect in looking for trouble? In that situation, it's obvious who the "bad guy" is. Question the motives of America. It's your right to do so but would it not be accurate to assess that all of us live in a violent and troubled world of people, some, ass holes sitting in the restaurant booth next to your booth and others right in our own families? I deplore, no, HATE violence. I hate all the children being molested and starved and hate most all human strife of life and unforturnately we have to try to live with it. I prefer negotiation first and America has proven to be long in patience and has has done many humanitarian things no other country would. Our National Anthem declares that we are the land of the free and the home of the brave. Not perfect and the fear of being anialiated by some military onslaught is at best, kept at bay. I'm so sorry that we ALL live in violent world. I don't like it either. Haven't we all been undercut by some "enemy" at work that was after our job and did what ever it took to get it? People are vicious in all aspects of human endeavors. Hasn't a neighbor argued with all of us over the fence about some property rights? Wouldn't we all stand up for our rights? Take em to court, whatever but certainly avoid violence at all costs. However, if I'm punched at I'm gonna be a "warmonger" and punch back. Especially if my loved ones were being punched and I'm certain they'd love me even more than ever and would attain a feeling of comfort and safety for having jumped in. Enough. I'm open to being proven wrong, I could be wrong. Where is there rightness in letting what you love get denegrated? Don't we all justify our behavior? - 13:28:58 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Did not all the nations of NATO use restraint in the deciding what to do about Kosovo? If we are "warmongers" then we have a legion of "warmongering" supporters I surmise that IF we lived on a orb where all people got along, America would not possess ONE, verbal or actual, bow and arrow. The John Lennin song, Imagine, is running thruogh my head even as I write this "soul search" - 13:51:18 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:One more perplexing thought. Nato's operations have inadvertantly or rather, ignorantly, has accelerated the frenzied slaughter of Albanians. All this pouring over maps and high falootin aircraft has done little to thwart MelosoSick's agenda of genocide. Perhaps it's a fact that Nato impotent and is more interested in showing off it's power than extracting THE Warmonger himself. How can an alliance of 19 nations, with all it's talent, have been so myopic in vision? I'm equally worried that the US has a "Commander-in-chief" that's not been in the military. How many other Nato countries have the same problem? Ok, my cartharsis is completed. - 14:49:24 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DARRELL - your words "America has proven to be long in patience and has has done many humanitarian things no other country would." proves how little you know about what other countries do in this great wide world. I do not fault you for this. Instead I place the blame on your government and media. You hear only what you are allowed to hear, you learn in school only what you are allowed to learn. It is my opinion that a typical person in the U.S. is raised to know only what is going on in the U.S., and if anyone wants to know anything else, they have to make the effort, and the majority don't. In this way, I look at your government as being similar to Russia's, China's, any government that doesn't want their populace to think too hard. Also, you may like to think yourself a humanitarian, and that it most commendable, but we were discussing macro, not micro when this discussion started. - 15:33:10 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:RON - I envy your new home! I've always wanted to get my hands on an old church and make it a home. Not so that I could hear angels or anything, but because of the architecture. You are a lucky guy! - 15:35:57 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:DARRELL: As you may have pickedup, I prefer good people who are typically those without fears of telling truth, and also those that seem to have a reasonable personal sense of responsibility. In matters that concern the USA I've since found in, as it turns out, many sources that it appears the USA is not better than the ex-USSR when it comes to what people are told. On the other MIMM site I directed ones attention to contemporary dire acts of law I could but see as anti-people and simply anti-freedom. That video thing I mentioned to JOETTE is a small example of what is beginning to look like a much larger concern. Do you suppose that the information you see in the national news media is fair enough for you to decide on this Kosovo matter? I've seen what appear to be different views but none say they are gratefully ecstatic that the USA destroys things built by that group of people and kills those in and about that group of people. Again, as I pointed out to STEVEN I heard a learned Kosovo type say that the matter was a civil war. However, WJC/USA has another agenda, that of reforming his historical credibility, a simply way to show he's in charge and command, direct and approve some killing and destruction. I will purchase a book titled "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order", it was reported as a good read. - 16:40:39 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARELL- I agree with you on the subject of Milosevic. I think all avenues have been exhausted with this guy. He's worse than Saddam could have ever dreamed of being. As I posted a little while ago, most Europeans are not happy with the action NATO has had to take mainly because the Serbs have a majority of sympathizers in northern Europe. I can almost garan-ass-T you that they were in favor of the air strikes in Iraq at the time it was happening. I think it's totally unfair to label the US as the war monger. NATO is more than the US. Canada for one of the many members have also been involved in those air strikes. The US is labeled as such maybe because they have the majority of the equipment. Back to Milosevic. Since the fall of communism the natural bullies have had the opportunity to rise out of the rumble. Where the government use to be able to bully these bullies, they are not there to do so now and guys like Milosevic have free reign. I'm not surprised that he's killing people in retaliation for the air strikes, it's part of the bully psyche. Nothing will stop him IMO unless it's a bullet. I think ground troops will have to be the next move and I'm sure they won't be only US ground troops. - 17:52:09 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:RON: You kno'that you are sitting on income property? Can you sublet? Find some wanna-be jc or xtian spokesman and strike a deal. - 18:15:00 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- The English signs in Quebec are still taboo. I've been to Quebec about 15 times I guess and each and every time had nothing but problems with communication. My partner and I drive truck (or at least I use to) and we've had to deliver and pick up loads there. Any other truckers, Americans included also found nothing but headaches trying to communicate. This includes directions, billing, appointments, etc. etc. If I got a free trip to Quebec, I wouldn't go! - 18:45:03 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

RON...--->MARLENE...:Lotsa wood. Dark wood trim but the walls and ceiling are white. Gray carpet and my landlord is bringing over a pew to put in the entry way. It's an awsome place. A loft (28'x21') over looks the entire alter-half of the church. Meaning, I rent the farthest end of the church - the alter-end. - 19:16:15 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:So, you coming to vist or what? Did I mention the 6 person hot-tub in the living room? - 19:18:05 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

RON...--->Carl...:No way I'm letting out this place to some lowly xtian!!! - 19:18:57 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:RON - since you have the alter-end, does that make you the alter-ego? - 21:40:53 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE - if I may be so bold, Darrell's question was just not pertaining to what is happening in Kosovo. I think he was asking if those of us non-Americans have that impression overall. - 21:42:41 on 2 Apr 99 GMT

Garbage posts deleted

Grant:GARBAGE POSTER-- Seems AOL is very cooperative regarding problems of this type. This is what you could call the warning. - 3:03:12 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT - does this mean this guy has free rein here too? - 4:00:09 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Not for long. - 4:09:40 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- "Oh I see" says the lady who doesn't read posts carefully enough, lol! Being Canadian, I don't think I would say that the US are war mongers actually although they are definately wanting the world to recognize their power. In order to be recognized as No1, I suppose they have to advertise and one way is with their well stocked military. If anyone were to attack Canada, I must say, I'm glad we have the US as neighbors since we are so poorly equipped. Although we are a peaceful country over all, peace talks don't stop bullies. Only armies can do that. SO DARREL- My answer would be no, I don't think the US is a war monger and uses it's military might only when it has to. - 4:14:20 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- So what does AOL do, get out it's druid-be-gone virus and send him an email? - 4:17:52 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Geez that sounded cynical. :) You don't want me to block all of AOL do you? Better this way. - 4:33:32 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Marlene, Our Anthem declares "home of the brave" and it is most appropos. We pride ourselves in defending that which is important to the over-all well being of humanity. Thanks for the nice compliment of being glad we are near by. If I observed you were handling yourself against a bully, I'd stand in awe and pride of your resolve and if I determined you needed help I would personally, bodily and otherwise, protect you against that bully. Canada deserve it. No one, including the bullies, needs BS nevertheless it's a violent world. Fight fire with water, fire and ice. What ever it takes. - 14:27:31 on 3 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Nope, I don't want to see all of AOL blocked, if you did we may never hear from Bill again..sigh...I just don't know how this blocking the druid is done is all. Me cynical, naaahhh! - 1:26:05 on 4 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:I hope all the xtians are having a lovely day celebrating the execution of an ordinary but somewhat unstable man. Grizzely holiday, if you ask me. I much prefer the easter bunny. - 14:51:48 on 4 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Marlene, let's hear it for the bunny. Over 100 million people are celebrating the resurection. "He is risen" I say bull crap to that. Be encouraged, if you can, because if a million believe a lie . . .it's STILL a lie. - 20:11:10 on 4 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- And I love those Cadbury eggs! Did you happen to watch the Simpsons tonight? LOL LOL LOL! As usual, they had a fitting program for this "holiday"! - 4:09:59 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Marlene, I heard the Simpsons was a bit sacreligious and thats a "sackoradishes" for sure. Wish I had though. If you have copy, I'd pay postage, handling charges,tape costs and 5 bucks more for your profit too. I don't watch much TV these days. I work 7/24 anymore, read and internet. Thanks for the info. - 12:32:46 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE - as I was watching the Simpsons I was hoping you were watching it too. I haven't laughed so hard at a program in ages. It was about as irreverant as a show could be, and I applaud the producers for having the gall to have it on on Easter Sunday. I wonder how many complaints there will be. I hope thousands! - 14:03:14 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:O'SIMPSONS: I just had a fella briefly describe the show, he says it was probably gonna be seen as ruff on the thiin-skinned xian religious believer. I was reminded also of back when of the Smothers Bro.episode that made fun o'the Vietnam war, how shortly there after it was made 'gone'. Anyone here have stock in the tv network which aired that show? It will be interesting to see what kind of stuff someone like J.Falwell might say of this thing. Isn't JF the same one who had prob's with the tellatub thing? - 15:01:23 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: Looks like the druid/PAM has relocated to STEVENS MIMM site. - 15:09:35 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You think the Simpson's is a hoot on religion, have you seen some of the King of the Hill episodes? Groening (sp) is absolutely great! There have been complaints about the Simpson's since day one. I hope they really stirred up the pot this time lol! How did you like the take on who really ate those apples first? And on who really named the animals? LOL! How about the parting of the sea? DARRELL- I didn't tape it but maybe Joette or someone else did. No matter, it will be on again. - 15:16:18 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: Seein'how you're concerned about Garbage, last night on 20/20 I was told they ran a segment of a new cult. It has been referred to as the "Garbage eaters". These folks are very religious and reject all that the common contemporary folk use of the today's world. They recruit from the rank and file on college campuses. So, for about a month or two at leaving for home I pass by this well-whiskered fella in a franciscan like robe holding a sign with the words 'is there rite and wrong'. Per the 20/20 thing this fella is a garbage eater. I missed this program too. So what is wrong with these folks? Are they really religious or do the minds of such people blink off or disconnect and religious types seize the moment? - 15:24:22 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene so many people are tooooo serious:CARL- It's a FOX production and I really doubt that they will be going anywhere soon. They piss a lot of people off. Not only the religious nuts but also the skeptics (for which I am one). Many skeptics don't have any sense of humor IMO. I understand from the last _Skeptical Inquirer_ that Akroyd (sp again) got a big "boo award" from them for his show PSI Factor. I personally love these shows for the entertainment value. - 15:24:42 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: The other day going off to have lunch with the spouse the sky was pretty clear, the blue was dominant. As you can tell I was lookin upward. As I walked looking upward I noted a disturbance in a blue only area. Thats about the only way to describe that moment that caught my attention, it was a disturbance as if something was moving. I stopped to concentrate on that spot in the sky blue. I got to watch a moment of condensation in the atmosphere. Until then I'd never seen a cloud form. But that is what I got to see and watched as the air near that disturbance, that moment of condensation spread outward and the cloud grew. I was captivated, by the prospective poetry of that moment. - 15:45:42 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:CARL - the 20/20 show was about a sect called "The Brethren". It had been aired before, but even the second time around it was disturbing. On a different note, I just love when you describe nature. You uplift my "spirits" tremendously when you do that, and I thank you. - 17:46:48 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: "spiritual uplifts" just send cash. Isn't that how spirit things go?[he says with a smile.] Of the brethern thing, yea there is this guy out on the upper plaza he stands w/his sign and empty smile. Me and the other guy are planning to ask him a question or two. - 18:28:47 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

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Carl:GRANT: Now this is gonna be a tough one, as in when and how do you determine which is the real and the pretend, the pickman's model, ain't this Carl at this place. - 22:24:13 on 5 Apr 99 GMT

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Joette:GRANT - given the post that has my name on it, I believe that your suspicions are correct. There must be something in the Florida air that causes an otherwise productive man to act this way. He must have some sort of inferiority complex, even with his Freudian bravado. Is this the beginning of a journey into madness, or was he just putting on a front previously. It's sad. - 0:23:11 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

RON...--->???...:Ok, last night this page was blank? Is Grant cleaning house? Hi everyone!!! How's the world!!! I have new photos of my new church-apartment. I'd love to share them. - 1:24:15 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- I wonder, are there oak groves in among the palms? - 4:21:42 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Grant (Incoming!):RON-- We were under attack; couple of pages of spam coming in at about 2 minute intervals before my very eyes. I closed up shop for a couple of hours, mopped the floors, took out the trash, wiped the grime off the doorknobs, then reopened. - 5:14:33 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Discussion page archives:They're up, and in an easily chewable monthly form. - 5:19:31 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:CARL-- That's hilarious about the "Garbage eaters". Wish I'd seen it. Missed the Simpsons too. Dang. - 5:23:02 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- Anyone hear a story about Madalyn Murray O'Hair and company? I heard a snippet on the radio this morning about the FBI being thought to have a line on where the bodies are and a witness? - 5:55:15 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Don't know what to say about that. I kinda hope not. Circumstantial evidence and all, blah blah blah. Maybe I'll just ask him. - 5:59:40 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: At this time I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate the "deletion" I see in place of the other carl. No mercy for the thoughtless? It just might work. That archieve thing, wow! You must be complimented for the grand effort you've put into this site. Nothing like a little history for reflection and for refinement one's previous thoughts. Strange it is, to see one's younger days. - 14:32:48 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:YES! GRANT- The good ole days with "pass the mustard" CDrake..ahh..such memories! - 16:07:37 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Speakin'of the past and its links that serve us, supposedly our now, have any noted some of the reports that say school text books are incorrect! Per a report outta'Texas, this problem spans the states, from sea to shining sea. The thinking and views of such products, the young students, are o'course one thing. But, what about the psychological products of such "learning"? This erroneos data as its set in the mental makeup of these 80 and 90's kids what do those in control expect in the coming ages? Is it no wonder that people today think its ok to lie and outrage is a thing of the past? Who is responsible for this mess and better yet who will take responsibility for its clean up? For my part for my offspring I try to push and pull them towards books I've read point them at that which least seem exemplary of good conduct and behavior thinking and writing. The truth? Thats the quest thats the challenge of existence. But, wow! bad school text books. Does anyone know who is at the helm? - 17:16:31 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene :Here's what I could find on O'Hair thing. - 17:30:37 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:It would be nice if the authorities finally found some closure to this case. Nothing xtians love more than to bring up O'Hair running off with a lousy $500,000. Of course there is absolutely no evidence that she stole the money and ran but being xtians, evidence isn't necessary for them to form opinions. - 18:46:27 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Carl :MARLENE: the investigative process of the O'Hair thing among many other examples are why I began to see things in terms of 'who controls'. The xian thing, at least you and me seem to see it as just an issue raised and promoted by a group of people, for only their purposes. Neither o'us has seen one of them bring forward their godthing for a question or two. The xians cannot withstand a serious substantive question of that notion. The O'Hair thing is a notion that is simply outside of what their thinking process can cope. Sources of authority, well these folks have to go along to get along. They too can't really become involved with such matters and events, they "deem" it, probably, politically unsupported. - 22:52:21 on 6 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Open; About O'Hair disappearance, I always thought that she wouldn'tve stolen the money because she would surely know that she'd be recognized anywhere in the world, being the "most hated woman" and all. I once suspected Bill Murray, the son/defector, as having snuffed out Madalyn, motivated by his perverted XChin way of thinking and by $. I once sat through a "sermon" by Bill and was humored when he lost his place in memory. He had memorized the sermon yet had earlier suggested that it was a impromptu message from God himself. It was right when the Iran/Contra scandle was going on and the Olie North thingy. Bill got a note message passed to him from an usher and when he read it right in front of the 300+- worshipers, he feigned crying. He excused himself for a minute, walked off the stage and returned in 5. After he composed himself he asked that we all pray for one of his associates that just got shot down in Nicarauga. Well, the next day, on the front page of the Newspaper I read about Mr. Hausenfous getting shot down in, you guessed it, Nicararga . . . smuggling guns. You all might remember that episode in recent history. The "evidence" the crash, opened the door for the ensuing North trial and all. Bill Murray had something to do with it is my perception. I have no other supporting "evidence" just speculation based on how he reacted to the message. Well, any way, he never could get back on tract with his memorized speach and just fell apart, appologizing and mumbling incoherant things from the pulpit so that when he could no longer compose himself, he gave a prayer and ended the sermon. I can't say as I see that Bill Murray is an honest man. You had to have been there to feel the dishonesty in his voice and mannerism. - 1:29:24 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

RON...--->GRANT...:I love the how clean the place is. Again, I salute you. - 1:59:10 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

RON...(darn it)...:I type the way Yoda speaks, my apologies. Are we allowed to type Klingon now? (anyway) ALL, I've been invited to the local Episcopal church by a more than friendly local cutie...I think I'll make myself welcome and proceed to "baaa" amongst the sheep while I sharpen my teeth. I love the meek, they taste better than steak. - 2:03:59 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: What do you suppose or do you know how my post got cut into two? Perhaps its the 'tribbles' or did my pc when being turned off experience an instant of consciousness, and so confusion? - 14:29:01 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- I haven't really followed the O'Hair story at all so I'm not very familiar with it. Was this son of her's not an atheist? Fill me in a bit more on the story. - 16:10:51 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I checked in here last night and the druid was in spam overdrive. I think Grant just had to delete as fast as it was coming in so maybe that is why the posts are a little mixed. - 16:13:11 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE, thanx but it looks as tho'that druid person plans to make someone and anyone waste time dealing with the druids mind, or lack of it? - 16:57:19 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- He's attention addicted I think. Grant will eventually get rid of him. - 17:57:23 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..at least I have a sense of humor today:CARL- Not only that, he seems obsessed with going down subway stairs, lol! Can you imagine what it would be like to work in a psych ward? - 18:00:20 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

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Carl:ANY: So this is what they mean to try here, well what can be said? Nothing comes from nothing. - 18:55:21 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :GRANT <<>> looks like war on the spammers, please keep us informed on what happens. Or post their IP's and I can add some damage to their machines..... - 19:45:59 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Carl :ANY; Last fri.the tenth grader met and spoke to two pro scounts, Rangers and the Cards. That was fun. - 21:47:59 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:CARL - I want an autographed 8 x 10 glossy! Hearty congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!! - 22:38:55 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE; You may catch a game o'his in your country wouldn't that be something, gotta go another game with the youngest on a 13 14 yr.ol team - 22:53:11 on 7 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Marlene, yes, Bill Murray was an Atheist and is now a XChin. I suspect he defected for the money. You know that he would "earn" about $600 a Sunday preaching against his mother. What a draw . . . The marque; "THE MOST HATED ATHEISTS' BORN AGAIN SON, BILL MURRAY. SUNDAY NIGHT. 7PM." That way HE was the hot shot. No longer under his mothers' stoic wing, is my guess. He sold out for the buck and his survival instinct was greater than his honesty. He'd still an atheist but the XChins don't know it. Once again, they are being duped. - 1:46:52 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

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Doug:Grant; their doesn't seem to be any dialog of any human value here. Our mental case was busy last nite again. - 11:48:44 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :GRANT <<>> I know you are busy, but these IP's need to be blocked, crashed or something. I sure wish I could be within a couple of feet of one of these assholes. *dreams of foot up spammers ass* - 15:25:40 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: Perhaps the mindlessness o'one's conduct and behavior is or can be too much for a coherent subjective aim. The "time and effort" to separate good modification and interplay for and from mental nonsense seems to be a what the 'druid'[?] wants. That veiled party seeks to confuse the divisibility and unity of matters, why? Just to be an annoyance, are they insane, perhaps that party just needs to get laid[that the right rendition of that word?]? - 15:42:19 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

Mark:What's the deal here? I'm a Nietzean know-it-all and have interests in metacognition, the origins of consciousness, and the virtues of the torta milanesa. What's all this fuss about druids? - 16:10:47 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

Carl: MARK: Perhaps you can tell me, maybe some others too, what that poster[druid we say] wants at positing assorted odd and strange words and passages. That party refers to trees and days of magic and whatever else, such references look like, well, another platform o'ones imagination. IMHO this looks like just the wishful want of an ex-theist thinking feeling believer who is now just a bit disgruntled cuz'its becoming apparent to their mind that there ain't no godthing that it's mind can know. Bein'one to opt for a simple solution that druid/poster needs to get fucked. - 16:46:00 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

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Joette:ALL SANE PEOPLE - Grant sent a message and asked me to convey to you that his ISP is down, and so he is unable to monitor the board at the moment. Guess the idiot(s) can have a play day. - 22:19:13 on 8 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:Sorry all. I'm back on the case. - 1:59:21 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:STEVEN-- I've got the cgi. Doing some testing. Watch this space. - 2:00:44 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:CARL-- Don't know what happened with your posts. They were still there but printing out wierd for some reason. I think they're fixed. Have a look. - 2:02:50 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

RON...(the new Pennsylvanian): This is better than Television!!! - 2:22:56 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:RON-- Not for me. :) - 3:31:22 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Read the last story....:..........http://www.usatoday.com/news/digest/nd1.htm - 12:32:56 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

THIS YOU'LL LIKE.....:........http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/buss_19990407.html - 13:03:33 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:ALL. How to make Holy Water? Boil the Hell out of it! - 13:23:04 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: So did you fix that post problem via some prayer? Did something or wraith-like spirit thing just "say" the word or "wave" an appendage or "nod" a head in approval, and ouila! the world order was restored. Anyway, it looks ok. - 14:40:00 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :ALL <<>> Irony: Is it not Ironic that we Americans like to call Slobodan Milosovic a Nazi (or compare him to Hitler). Was it not Abraham Lincoln, one of our nations most revered presidents, that sent Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman's army through the South (specifically SE, Georgia, Alabama, Florida Carolinas) . The residents, mostly woman, children and old men were run out of their homes at gun point. The soldiers took what they wanted, then burned the houses. In looking over the landscape , the only things standing amid the smoldering embes were the fireplace chimneys. These features, called "Shermans Towers", stood for many years as a grim reminder of the carnage. It just seems Ironic that we appose Milosovic in Kosovo while the same time universally hailing the perpetrator of tactics similar to his in our own country as the best president we ever had. ***FYI, I am in favor of ground troops, for it is my belief that Lincoln was wrong as well as Milosovic**** Also, how very christian of them, and American. rofl! Doesnt Milosovic want a cease fire for Easter, to celbrate the death of christ. - 19:03:45 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: I am startin'to suspect that good ol'uncle Sam is just trying out some new war toys. They've been gatherin'dust and cobwebs on the drawing board and in the garage, for too long now. If the USA doesn't try them on someone soon, how does it know what needs improvement and fixin'? - 19:49:17 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN; who knowz what the folks that today are called homosexuals, what were they called in past times? I think queer is sorta new or recent also, but what were they called, lets say 3 4 or 5000 years ago? Any dare to share the history of this idea or whatever they are? - 21:47:39 on 9 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:I was watching The tube while eating dinner tonite and on comes a picture of Slobodan Milosovic and all I could think of was that he is a spitting image of Newt Gingrich. Could it be twins separated at birth.Or has the Newt been living a double life. - 1:36:45 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- From what I've read, homosexuals were not always bashed. In fact some societies considered them "godly". I'll try to find some of those books I've read this in for reference. But another thing is, that bisexuality was very common in ancient societies also. Sex was a good thing in these societies as it paid homage to the fertility goddesses (I don't think there has been a fertility god). - 3:28:41 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:On the Kosovo thing..I got a letter from a friend of mine the other day and she mentioned a very good point...why are the muslims referred to as muslims in the western media but the Serbs are not referred to as christians? - 3:32:26 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Grant :I've taken a look at wartime propaganda from the past; WWI, Spanish civil war, etc. Efforts are made to rally public support for whatever the governments happen to be up to. With that in mind, look at the story linked here. Atrocities are a favorite tool. Not to imply that atrocities are not happening. It's just interesting to watch information being manipulated. Propaganda needn't be false information, but isn't this particular revelation just a tad too vague and unsubstantiated? In my view no effort is being made to present a context or general understanding of the situation, or estimation of how widespread or typical such atrocities may be. They're seeking only an emotional response. The writers of the story note this. - 4:29:51 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Good Point Marlene. I suspect that you know why we don't refer to the Serbs as XChins as it would taint the XChins here!? Oh but if they were "TRUE" XChins, they'd not be killing HA HA HA - 13:29:50 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- Well the xtians here would say "Then they are not REALLY XChins". - 14:23:34 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Very true! Propaganda fuels the fire! For instance, during the Gulf War, it was reported that Sadam's troops went into Kwiati hospitals and killed babies. I had friends there at the time and no such thing happened at all. They are not Saddam supporters and were appalled at the killing his troops did on Kurd villages but the Kwaiti thing was false. - 14:27:28 on 10 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:to all; is it propaganda, after all we have been hearing this since the fall of the communists. The Serbs did a number in Bosnia killing and ethnic cleansing, and the world stood by. On another note the Nazis did much worst that all of the ww2 propaganda put together. - 1:07:34 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:DOUG-- "Propaganda" is a loaded word. The American Heritage dictionary defines it as: 1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those people advocating such a doctrine or cause. 2. Material disseminated by the advocates of a doctrine or cause. --I don’t doubt that Milosevic and the situation in Serbia are as bad as claimed. I support Nato’s and the U.S.’s actions. But the Whitehouse statements are propaganda none the less, IMO. There is no implication that it’s equivalent to Nazi or other propaganda. BTW, thanks for the pointer to the html/cgi editor. It’s very good. - 2:18:32 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT and DOUG- And Milosevic will continue until someone stops him. I suppose the goal of the propaganda is to gain support from the more non-violent types in western society to have some empathy with those who are suffering. It's really too bad that something as powerful as NATO couldn't take out Milosevic himself. Although I hate to see the suffering, I also don't like to see the ordinary Serb being killed by the air attacks. I think the propaganda is aimed at people like me. - 4:35:53 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- DOUG-- People like Milosevic exist. Conflicts exist. Governments manipulate information to shape public opinion rather than use more open methods. All a shame maybe, but facts of life. One may support a cause, and so see a necessity for garnering public support by whatever means available or expedient, maybe rightly so. Maybe it's the only way that works. But still it is what it is. - 6:04:39 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene and Grant;What about all those past atrocities in Bosnia done by the Serbs Those were real, weren't they?I have a distaste for propaganda, especially when it comes from a western democracy.There does seem to be a lot of refugees trying to get out.What about all of this, is it the Serbs method(just like the nazis) to spead the fear so people would move and clog up the highways. The situation in Afganistan is far worse, but doesn't warrant the media's attention. - 12:21:23 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: It looks as tho'the U.o'Wisconsin has taken an action that, from here, could be flagged "a second thought". It has to do with free speech and all that political correctness phase that I thought swept over and away many political units dispite special interest. As one proponent of the university's amendment said, "I'd rather be called a faggot and know who my friends and enemies are then, etc..". That seemed like an intuitive rejection of the 'morals' so heavily imposed by the xtian view and involvement w/the world order. Now that you've brought up a few other points I seem to recall that we at this site have gone over that very problem w/specific references that are in the xtian's biblical source. But still I wonder what names those kinda'folks were called. I wonder because as you point out some were seen and held in special relevances in some societys, still what were the contexts in which they were so held? - 14:54:08 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene :CARL- I haven't had time to find the references to homosexuality being "godly" or "special". I'm so damn busy trying to get everything together for income tax nothing else is getting done, lol! I will find that info though. - 17:03:59 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Do you northerners have the same Tax due date as usa types, 04/15 12:00pm? - 17:21:46 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Nope! It's 04/30 11:59 PM. I HATE tax time! - 17:52:27 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Adam BEAT IT, MAC!:ÝÝÝÝ Howdy, denizens! Adam checking in on my new Tangerine IMac. Yes, my computer got much better, but god still sux! Kosovo is just the latest support for my long-held observation that religion is the leading cause of homicide in history and will continue to be so. How about those 6-2 Mets? - 23:33:23 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Shoeless Jo:ADAM - so, do you still need the URL? The Mets suck. - 23:49:54 on 12 Apr 99 GMT

Steven:ADAM <<<>>> ACK! you bought a mac, NOOOOOOOOOO! - 12:54:41 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:So now what will happen??? Troops into Albania? If so, where will NATO stop? Once the Serbs are out of Kosovo and Albania? Then will they stay to "keep the peace" and make sure that rebuilding will take place unhampered by the Serbs? If this is where they stop, guess who's billions will go into the rebuilding? I say right on to Belgrade and make sure Milosevic empties his country's military account. - 13:31:38 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:o'KOSOVO: I get a kick outta'the headlines on this issue. It always reads "Nato.. this n'that" then in the text you start readin about how WJC and the USA "want this or that". So is it a NATO thing or just WJC tryin'jocky his degenrative lyin self into a favorable position "for" the sake of "himself". I've read that those kosovite types are not loosing all that much militarily in the bombing. Dare I say here, that unless a group of people absolutely "want" something such as the Europeans wanted the americas, the maorias wanted the islands chains, the Romans wanted that of Carthage wherefore such, the groups of people upon those lands were simply destroyed. The kosovo thing is just a chance for some military experiments. Some reports try to portray that its got religious connections, maybe. Some reports try to portray its killing and the rite to life, maybe, but what about afghanistan and those other places? There is nothing of monetary value for the world in kosovo, perhaps someone still holds to the childish notion that they can make a difference? Its Kosovo's civil war, but is it becoming the Rodney King politics of intervention "Why can't we all just get along?" - 16:12:10 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:o'KOSOVO2: unbelievable! NATO "and" the USA are now concerned that there is a spy tipping off the pertinents Kosovoians of the bombing targets. It sounded as these interventioners- NATO USA, want a body bag or two, a scalp, just a something for the fire. Without any such to point at, I guess they will figger the millions o'$$$ spent on the war toys, was wasted? - 16:34:32 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Adam Jo Don't Know Baseball ºººº:Yeah, sweetie, they suck to the tune of 6-2 and four straight wins. Golly, the Jays must REALLY suck! - 20:52:43 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Adam WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM, MAC¿¿¿¿¿:Steven: I didn't buy it; my employer did. But this thing is lightning fast with extra RAM for $1300, so I am indeed in the market for another for home use. Maybe a blue one, so I'll have the Mets' colors, and then I can switch the keyboards and mice for a multihue effect. Screw Microsoft! - 20:55:16 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Adam COMMANDER-in-GRIEF:Let's face it, folks: Bill Clinton and his advisors are running this war based on polls and no other evident strategy, and clearly are not competent to command the most powerful fighting force in history, eviscerated by them as it is. - 20:58:05 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Adam Jo-Bet? Not Yet!:Say, Jo, why don't you think of a real hefty wager for the series June 7-9. Wish you could be here in person to see you eat crow (or is that flattened filet of blue loser birds?) - 21:01:13 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:CARL - heard the spy thing was just a rumour, and the suits in charge aren't pursuing it at all. More propaganda of course. And the NATO bombing of a passenger train was just "an unfortunate accident". Bunch o' bullshit. - 22:34:00 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:ADAM (aka The Mouth that Roared)...let's make it interesting this year. Let's make a bet on which team has the best average at the end of the season. - 22:35:08 on 13 Apr 99 GMT

Adam BEAT IT, MAC! :ÝÝÝÝ :How everything still turns to gold ... And if you listen very hard ... The tune will come to you at last... - 0:40:55 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ADAM, nonetheless: its still hail to the chief! Afterall, he's proof still standing that it's ok to lie for any that so choose. Remember always, any can and do, that "we(of polls) all lie" so whatever- its ok. - 14:25:40 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- It looks like you've gotten rid of the spammer! Good work! BTW, I received the books and will get the others off to you this weekend (I can't find one of them). - 6:22:18 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:I understand Israel is taking in muslims from Kosovo. This is a step toward peace as far as religion goes although it won't likely make a whole lot of difference between Israel and the Arab muslims. - 6:25:24 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Madam, only I'm Adam ····:The previous message with the juvenile Zeppelin lyrics was not mine. Of course, my messages invariably will be relevant to the conversation, insider items directed at individuals (ususally JoJayNoWay) or funny punny rants. Hell, I even try to make the Suess quotes somewhat on point. What kind of loser still listens to LedZep? - 6:28:18 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Adamideast:Marlene: Keep in mind that Netenyahu needs to court Muslim voters, having alienated many on the far right, for the upcoming election. They make up about 16% of the electorate. - 6:30:20 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE; Those jews r a dynamic group o'organisms even tho'they r so few. I find some o'the things said by them have human values, them and their godthing trip, well, like all adherents o'godstuff, thats the problem. It makes them think they are "right" and as its said o'them, they see what they are as chosen. Aren't we all. Is it true that they r chosen, sure they r, in a pigs eye. Theism by anyone at anytime, it just doesn't work for the human critter. - 7:39:00 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--a loser who still listens to Led Zep--:Howdy, y'all. - 10:44:42 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Rob (Far too easilt Led):Jay: Nice to see you, to see you nice. R U sitll climbing the stairway to <<insert choice of atheist afterlife here>>??? - 10:56:11 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Adam BETTER DEAD than LED zoso:No offense intended, JW. Page is god, etc. - 23:29:43 on 14 Apr 99 GMT

Grant (somebody probably broke their fingers):MARLENE-- As much as I'd like to gloat, I haven't actually managed to ban the spammer yet. (I'm so ashamed) The absence is nice though, eh? - 2:01:14 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Yea Carl, I thing we should just Bomb the Hell out of them Jews. They believe in God. Is that what you think? - 3:45:48 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Maybe, with some luck, his fingers won't heal too fast. - 3:59:08 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:ADAMieast- True! Netanyahoo has been nicer to the muslims lately, not like him at all... - 4:00:42 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..now on "jumping to conclusions":TO WHOMEVER left the post suggesting Carl supports "bombing the hell out of the jews".....I didn't get that impression from Carl's post, how did you? - 4:03:46 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..IMO..:CARL- It's true that the jews do think they are god's chosen people but then again that is their god's opinion and we know his opinion isn't THE only opinion. SO IMO, their god, as well as the muslim/xtian god (who BTW is the same god with mulitiple personality disorder) SUCKS! - 4:08:09 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene WARNING:JAYWILSON- Stay away from stairways! Especially those subway stairs, druids lurk there! - 4:10:37 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:PAPASAM-- In the midst of this morning's spam deletions was a post bearing your name, which I took to be authored by someone other than you. A thousand pardons if I am mistaken. - 14:00:50 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:INVISIBLE POSTER: yea! like thats gonna solve things. Did you vote for WJC? - 15:00:31 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: You kno'that unnamed person is spineless as well as just tryin'to cause a fire. It would call for some psychologist type to be able to spoon through the sewage that is that person's mind and perceptions. At least w/theists we can begin with the point of view that they are imaginative and probably delusional, cowards, well where does one begin? - 15:12:16 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :CARL <<>> I think we all are quit aware of your feelings about clinton, must you constantly whip us with it? Until this whole clinton stuff went down you were always so positive and refreshing to read. Has the clinton thing really beat you down to the point where that is all that you can think about? - 18:22:16 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:STEVEN; You're on to somethin'there, and you're right I oughta'let it go. But that kind of immorality is such an offensive thing to me. But I'll leave it. - 18:48:03 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: on the CNN site there is a chat site titled, defending Darwin, one post there goes; "Where is Jimmy Hoffa? P.S. I saw a piece of the original cross" Is that honest entry? If that is then when will someone also post that they've drunk some of the virgin marys milk that nourished jc the babe? Is one's mind really that fragile and so easily confused? - 20:12:22 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--ain't superstitious but a black cat crossed my trail--:MARLENE: I'm driving from VT to Alaska and back via the Trans-Canada and Al-Can highways in mid-June; any chance of meeting you, Joette, or any of the Canajan crew along the way? ROB: Page ain't god--like, what/who is?--but, as with milk, I haven't outgrown my need for loud, intelligent, guitar-driven rock. CARL: As with O.J., W.J.C. will get his; what goes around comes around, as the recent citation for contempt of court so aptly shows. They'll do time as the loneliest men in America, and that's sentence enough for me. Ignore them and save energy. - 21:11:28 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- That would be great! I live a half mile off the Trans Canada in Manitoba. - 22:29:44 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:jaywilson - let me know your itinerary! I'd love for you to drop on by if you're in the area! - 22:32:13 on 15 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson---I'll have the trans-continental breakfast--:MARLENE/JOETTE: Tres cool; I'm leaving here June 14th, and expect to be in AK by the 22nd; then I'm staying for a week and returning July 1st. I'll be back to you both about possible F2F times/sites. It'd be great to meet you. Meantime, one can reach me at wilsonjay@yahoo.com. Thanks! - 0:41:28 on 16 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:jaywilson - I'm 300 miles from the Transcanada...doesn't look good... - 0:18:37 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Carl; reminds me of Saturday night live with father Guido Sarduchi (bad spelling) and the menu for the last super.See you can tell it's authentic by the date 32AD. - 3:43:44 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- A person approached me at work the other day, clearly behaving as though a work related thing. Makes a lot of small talk. I'm getting impatient. I want to ask what the hell he wants. His conversation begins to turn to religion. "Is this a joke?" I say. "I don't have time for this. I'm on the job." He doesn't desist. I'm gradually becoming more forceful. He presses a 'Watchtower' brochure on me, requesting a promise from me that I'll read it, with an implication he'll leave me alone if I'll promise. The conversation deteriorates from here. Anyway, what I'm wondering is, does anyone else see this as odd behavior? Is this the approach they're teaching in god school or wherever these people come from? Does this approach ever work for them do you think? I mean, I can't visualize this approach ever working. - 18:02:26 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Grant: they usually travel in pairs.Yeh they do this alot.We had a janitor who belonged to some evagilizing xian group, who bothered everyone at work.Well, he even brought in religous tapes into the lunch room so that everyone had a chance to hear the word. We all told him off, one guy from Italy really layed into him asking if god talks to him.This guy Leo (from Italy) said he recieved a phone call from god that the evangelical was a liar.This shut the drip up for good and he never bothered us again. - 18:13:26 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT - he promises to leave you alone if you read it? Not likely. He'll then badger you about what you thought about it. Can your employer do something about this? Here in Canada, we are fortunate in that religion can't be brought into the workplace and if it is, the person doing so is in big trouble. Is he new to the JW mindset and excited about his new found belief, and wanting to pass it on, or has he done this with other co-workers? I suggest you just slap him upside the head and be done with it ;) - 19:09:49 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I feel pretty confident he'll not bother me again. :) It just made me wonder about the behavior in general. If it were actual results I sought, my behavior would be different. If the motive is only to get some "witnessing" done and get a checkmark in St. Peter's book then the behavior begins to make more sense. - 19:21:30 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Rob (I'll have the comedy trans-plant):GRANT: Tell him he could be of help as you killed an evangelist in self-defence last week and need a witness... else next time you are in work draw a chalk outline of a body on the floor and chuck some copies of "Watchtower" on the floor next to it ;) JAY: Well as rock duos go they are OK, though to compare them to milk they lacked hate when it came to mean, noisy rock music. - 22:06:57 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I think I posted this before but here it goes again...I had a family come to my door. Two little kids were pushed in front of their parents and had to do the knocking as well as the talking. I had to say I wasn't interested and not invite them in...poor kids! This has also happened to me at work but once I say I'm atheist, they back away as if my atheism might be catchy. Maybe the trick is to bombard them with atheist reality checks. - 23:50:02 on 17 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--Say What,:ROB? Led Zep a "rock duo"? "...they lacked hate when it came to mean, noisy rock music"? You workin' for the Ministry of Misinformation, the SS, or both? - 0:45:55 on 18 Apr 99 GMT

Rob (La Creme de la creme or just a curdled pun?):JAY: Well I was referring to the Page-Plant partnership, though in spite of their lyrics not being particularly "mean" (in the nasty sense) maybe you would have preferred I said "...they lactate when it comes to mean, noisy rock music" ? - 11:13:28 on 18 Apr 99 GMT

PETER---:GRANT--All these religious assumptions, beliefs, dogma must 'work' for him, as all religions are formulated to do so regardless of what series of events may occur in one's life, whether it seems good or bad-or how much one prays, is faithful etc. A little warm fuzzy awaits them in some form which he connect to any setback or victory. He, along with his peers are convinced these fuzzies are somehow connected to how they approach God, and since it seems to 'work' for them, they are oh so enthusiatic to tell the rest of the world of this wonderful appraoch to live one's life. Fortunately for you, you possess the tools to see right through all this dogma which is about as flawed as anything imaginable, and you realise the impossible and futile task that would await you if you attempted to point them all out to him. But he doesn't want to see the flaws, he likes where he 'is'. As a result of hos own ignorance, he is terrified of this world, and has found a way to dispel many of those fears implementing methods that feed on that ignorance, and he thinks it's wonderful. I just tell these people I have found another 'way' which I also am comfortable and happy with, and they usually leave me alone. - 14:41:23 on 18 Apr 99 GMT

Grant (Long time no see):PETER-- But I wonder at the degree of selfishness/selflessness in this behavior. I'm convinced that when family and friends behave in this manner they feel they have something wonderful and would like me to have it too, but when a stranger approaches me, especially in a manipulative or at least underhanded manner, and in accordance with some religious organization's requirement for them to proselytize or "witness" or whatever, I have to wonder which eternal wellbeing is the focus of concern, mine or his. - 15:23:12 on 18 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:HI PETER! Sometimes they leave you alone, sometimes but mention the word "way" and I think it gives them an opening. Their way is the only way. I was listening to the Art Bell show on my way home tonight. A guy by the name of Robert Morningsky (a native American) was preaching about "star beings" who talked to his grandfather when the "star being" crashed near Roswell. The native Americans hid this star being from one camp to another while learning all there was to be learned about the stars and the creation of the native American then one day he just vanished. Only six people witnessed what this "star being" had to say and he has it all written down in his book which BTW is for sale. Doesn't this remind you of Smith and the mormon beginings??? - 5:19:13 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Just read an interesting report. Seems that one o'the modern-like human creature and the neanderthal thing used to get it on. The report says that because of 'a' skeleton that suggests it was the product of such a union. That would or could explain a few of the contemporary types I've seen hereabouts whose ways and simple apparition made think they live in a cave. So, is this story an actual account of observation, fact and deduction? If not where is the optional case, counter point for a godthing and other such stuff of and for the godthing[s]? Anybody read J.Diamond's "The Third Chimpanzee"? - 15:22:24 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

PETER:GRANT-->>Oh the guy is just an asshole , who has been able to find a belief where he can consort with other assholes, and is looking for more possible assholes. If you give no indication of acting anything close to an asshole, he should stop bothering you...Hi there Marlene, and all those who I haven't spoken with in quite some time. Grant, great job on the website! - 16:28:56 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I haven't read _The Third Chimpanzee_ but I doubt that evolution made that kind of giant step. From what I've been reading of Dawkins, evolution takes place in very small steps. - 16:46:15 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Good morning as it is from this part and time of the earth's revolution, I've just started the book. One of the points you'd find favor with, JD accounts for the similaritys of the ape idea and that the human is just a third chimp! As I ponder what it may say and what it has said I think you'd enjoy it. - 16:51:45 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Adam THE GREAT HOSER, EH?:Let me be the first (I hope) to buck the trend and reveal Wayne Gretzky for the mindless hockey puck that he is. In his farewell speech, he thanked god for giving him his passion for hockey. Oh, I'm sure that with Vietnam and the Cold War going on, god was REAL concerned about making sure some little johnny canuck was passionate about the only thing to be passionate about as a Canadian child (except ice fishing and hating the French, of course). Yes, if it weren't for god's intervention, he would have dropped the sport after one hard check and become a Molson-swiggin' lumberjack. Of couse, Jesus could have walked on water more readily it it was in the form of a frozen hockey rink. I wonder if Gretzky can call down plagues on the Serbians with his hockey stick as a staff, outdoing Milosevic's royal magician. Wow, I appear to be back from the weekend with a vengeance! - 17:10:28 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I hear tell that another good read by SP Huntington is titled "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order" and for or dispite the odd person that I am I found reviews of it attractive. It seems like it would address matters such as the Kosovo thing in terms much like that other book I've mentioned to you, Guns Germs and Steel. This book GGS, wipes away the smear that a lot of folks put on or hold dear about things of the past. - 17:51:26 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I wish I could read all those books but I just don't have the time. How about a short book report??? - 18:58:06 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:ADAM SG (southern gentleman)- I agree, Wayne Gretzky is a mindless hockey puck but maybe that has something to do with the godization he underwent in the good ole US of A. We, in Canada know there is no god because how else could the French exist here? BUT.. BUT.. we DO have passion here but no time between the snowstorms to exercise it. If anyone can change the way things are in Serbia it's the burning words of our Joe Clark. - 19:09:39 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

DavidJK:Grant, don't give him the time of day. He is not somebody that you want to know. If you interfere with his salvation, so much the better. - 20:35:16 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--aka Major Payne of the Salivation Army (he said, puckishly)--:MARLENE: Gretsky wasn't "godiz[ed]"; he is, however, guilty of Californication. Too bad; he brought class to <i>la glace</i>. - 20:49:04 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:ADAM - Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa also thanked their god for their homerun feats last year. It comes with the territory. Now, we canucks know the reason Wayne became such a good hockey player was the fact that his father had him on a rink for 10 hours a day from the time he could walk. The ultimate case of a parent living vicariously IMO. Ever notice how much Gretzky and Princess Di resemble(d) each other. Striking similarities. BMW, how did the Mets fare over the weekend????? Jays SWEPT (!!!!!!!) the Orioles (nah nah) - 20:51:52 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

DavidJK:Joette, I think that it's just all PR. As the old joke goes, "Jesus made us lose." - 22:20:09 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Joette (kotc to David ;):DAVID - it just occurred to me who you are!!!!! Welcome to our humble abode! - 22:50:17 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I remember a couple I knew who had their kids into tap dancing and baseball with that same kind of obsession. When school let out, the family piled into the van with the BBQ and hot dogs and off to the park for baseball. In the winter the poor girl came home from school and it was tap dancing both before and after supper and all weekend to prepare for the CNE and the Kitchener-Waterloo fair as well as the London fair and countless others. I really think it was the parent's dream made real. There was one kid in the family that just didn't fit their dream and the poor kid lived in the shadows of her sister and brother. - 22:51:50 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DAVID JK- If your new, welcome! I thought maybe you were the David who has posted here before. - 22:53:29 on 19 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:Welcome DAVIDJK-- I agree, and it can be dangerous too, One could get bored to death. - 0:59:17 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

DavidJK:Hello, Joette *kotc*. It's great to chat here. *S* Marlene, I am someone else, not the David who came here before. Thank you for welcoming me to the room. - 1:03:22 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Have you heard the latest rumor (and it's just that) about Bill 606P? Supposedly our government is introducing a bill to charge us for each email we send because Canada Post is losing money. Although this is hogwash, it goes to show you just what we think our government is up to. I've heard a bunch of whining about Canada's involvemnet in Kosovo. Do you think this may have anything to do with money? I understand Clinton has been hitting for another 6 billion and now all of a sudden Canada wants to opt out? - 3:38:10 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

PETER:ADAM--So what if Gretzky is mindless? He was just the greatest hockey player that ever played, and when asked to say something about his retirement, he says stupid things, well so be it. Sports figures are not sport figures as the result of their adroit verbal constructs, nor should they expected to be. - 4:25:07 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE - I viewed the e-mail gag as a gag, that's it. I don't see any conspiracies afoot. Our parliament is broadcast all day long, so we can see first hand what is happening in Ottawa. Haven't you seen the snail mail ads on television? That's the post office's method of fighting the e-mail craze. As far as Canada's involvement in Kosovo, I haven't heard about what you were talking about. I don't take Lloyd Axworthy very seriously, so when he is being interviewed, I tend to ignore it. Do you have more details? - 11:11:02 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- The email thing was a joke but what I'm saying is that most people here, when they heard it, said "what else can the government find to tax?". As far as our government wanting to pull out of the NATO thing...I was just listening to CBC radio last night and it sounds like this may be a move they are considering. - 14:26:47 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY; The ax works and it is a good for the good. - 17:11:42 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- All we have to do is axe the druid. The good thing is..we don't have to read his reply. - 18:14:55 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: from the images here, I dare say the druid person character has already lost its head. Its posts leave me in the saddness of seeing that of the just beheaded chicken. - 18:20:55 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:Anyone watching what's going on in Littleton Colorado right now? It's just awful! The poor kids and the poor parents who don't know if their kids are okay or not. Gawd! I hate guns! - 19:33:10 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:I hate the fact that the signs of something like this happening go missed more. I am deeply saddened by what has happened, besides being sickened and angry, but I wonder if it's possible that someone in the lives of kids that kill should have noticed something going wrong with the kids. Mind you, my first reaction to this "fucking Americans with fucking guns". This is the 8th school shooting in 2 years. What't it going to take to stop it? - 23:10:06 on 20 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..on a rant here..:JOETTE- I understand one of these Trenchcoat Mafia kids had a website on the net. Whether it was one of suspect's website or not who knows. It's my suspicion these kids were doing some kind of drugs when they decided to do this. Guns are deadly but very deadly in the hands of a kid on drugs. Unfortunately more than likely drugs were recreational at first then became a problem. Drugs can drastically change a personality and or attitude. I really think that many parents worry more about their kids having sex than they worry about their kids experimenting with drugs. The new drug of choice for kids seems to be methamphtimin(sp). It is also very popular here in the west. It's not only parents that say "what's the big deal if a kid experiments?", councellors, teachers etc. can't see the potential danger either. Of the four young people I know who have taken their own lives, one was on acid, another meth, another pcp and the other sniffing solvents. The problem IMO, is drug abuse and pushers, those that make them and those that are involved in anyway in the drug trade should be locked away forever. - 3:31:16 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Would my objectivity be suspect in your eyes if I said "fucking Canadians with fucking _ _ _ _ _"? - 3:40:12 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:ALL; I just heard that those gun men were some kind of nazis.Yesterday was hitlers birthday and according to the news these kids were always praising hitler.Whether or not it was racially motivated we don't know yet."Those fucking nazis" - 5:45:29 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene: DOUG- I understand that it was partially racially motivated. From one witness it was understood that the boys were out to kill anyone who wasn't white and athletes (sheesh) but it is obvious they killed and shot many white kids too. Of all the groups of people out there "nazis" are the ones I really dislike. - 13:24:17 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> Drugs are not responsible for what those kids did, that is an excuse. Meth and Acid do not cause kids to grab guns, run to their high school and shoot anybody. For that matter, they dont make people run out and commit suicide either. If anything, the majority of people commiting suicide are drunk off there ass. Do we make alchol illegal, again? The people in the 'drug trade' are in the drug trade because they are illegal and money is to be made. If drugs were LEGAL then 85% of our prison system would be cleared out and the drugs would be monitored and safe (as safe as they can get em). What I or anybody puts in their body should be a choice decided by the individual, not a government. You legalize drugs, you get rid of the gansta's. These kids were upset because they were outcasts. They were little white kids sick of being picked on by atheletes and minorities. No excuse, it is disgusting, but they were not rational or sane obviously. Drugs did not cause the 13 yrs olds in Arkansas to shoot the kids they shot. From what I understand the kids who did the shooting in CO yesterday were straight edge, in other words chemical free. I have many friends who have taken their lives, and none of them were because of drugs. I just went to a friggen funeral of a friend who commited sucide, and it was NOT drug related. Guns do not kill people, people kill people. The largest # of homicides are commited with knives, should be outlaw knives? JOETTE <<>> are you telling me that nothing like this happens in the fairy land of Canada? I am assuming that our population is maybe, 5 times that of Canada, so instances of this nature are far more likely to occur here than in Canada. Making guns illegal is not the answer either. Guns are legal to protect us for tyranical government (i.e. Constitution), not to hunt as the NRA likes to promote. I have many weapons. If the damn criminals have them, and the government, and the police, then I damn sure am gonna be packing. Keeping guns out of school is the answer. Maybe metal detectors, dogs, and cops at our schools which is sad, but maybe necessary. - 13:41:38 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Steven:ANY <<>> at least the happenings in CO give our media something to dwell on beside the genecide in Kosovo. - 13:44:23 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--a fucking American w/a fucking gun--:WHOMEVER: Yeah, I saw the news, too. Kids these days, huh? I've been talking for years--nay, decades now--to students I could see doing this type of thing if sufficiently stoked/provoked, and they all have one experience in common: few people give them the time of day, usually because they don't fit in w/their peers. Guns are not the problem; they are, however, a deadly vector by which to transmit hatred. Likewise, drugs are not the problem. Nor is Marilyn Manson music. Symptoms are not synonymous with the disease. What is the problem? I see it as a lack of community, concurrent with America's addiction to individualism and personality over character and ideals. Unfortunately, many of us are also armed, or earning enough extra money to buy off our problems by passing them on to governmental institutions like schools, welfare departments--or raising a kid's allowance to keep him/her at the mall a little longer. Perhaps a return to smaller schools would help; we teachers might actually get to know our kids better. Perhaps people ought to think about something besides sex till seventy when they get married, and get to know each other better before making babies who grow up unwanted and unloved. Of course, as Dennis Miller says, I could be wrong. Excuse me; I've got my own family to keep together, thank you. - 13:51:17 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:I'm surprized at the number of different ideas on what made these kids do something so horrible. Just maybe it's a combination of all these ideas. STEVEN- No Canada is not a fairytale land although our politicians like to pretend it is. It could very well happen here too and many kids have been shot here in Winnipeg even though we have a gun law. Stabbings happen here too. My son-in-law's son was shot in the chest at a gang party and now is disabled to the point he can't talk or eat. He'll be like this for the rest of his life. BTW, drugs do alter one's state of mind, do you not agree with this? - 14:20:48 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..not moving from her stand here..:JAYWILSON- Maybe smaller schools would help and it's true that it's sad that teachers no longer know their students. I come from a small town and my mom was a teacher for 25 years. Her kids still drop in to visit. The theory of kids parents not being there for them, though, really doesn't hold too much water in my experience. Most of the kids that are up to no good here that I know have very good parents who are always there for them and try their damnest to get them into other activities than gang activities or cult activities. It seems to be the style right now for the dark side of teen culture. When I was a kid it was the hippie culture. Our parents were there but whatever they said was "old fashioned and dumb". Unfortunately drugs do alter one's head and people do die on drugs. I had friends in the 60's that did. One of the very reasons I wouldn't touch drugs. Like I said...both you and Steven claim that drugs are not a problem as do many. I really believe that's an ostrich view on drugs. - 14:31:01 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--so who asked you to move?--:MARLENE: If you're going to refute my statement, at least read it closely enough to quote it correctly. I wrote that drugs are not 'THE' problem--of course it's 'A' problem, Marlene. But no program will ever solve it; the same fucked-up kids of negligent parents--seems like all families are dysfunctional these days--will find some new spray can to inhale from. And as for your "experience" with good parents with bad kids who somehow went astray via drugs, cults, or gangs: you've got a vision problem--truly good parents have good kids who don't get fucked up on meth, wear trenchcoats and sunglasses, or kill their schoolmates, _because they know better_. So look at your "good parents" more closely--I'd say yours is more "the ostrich view." - 15:07:56 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- We'll just have to agree to disagree. Do you know the parents of these kids that killed? I don't so I'm not about to judge them as "bad parents". There are a whole lot more influences out there than parents now-a-days. - 15:38:55 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:Another point here. Parents, teachers or society in general didn't put the guns, granades etc. into these kids hands nor did anyone tell them, force them or push them into killing all their peers. They, themselves decided to take this action for whatever reason or reasons. Humanity isn't always nice nor can anyone be totally "taught" to be nice. The reality is this goes on on a much grander scale like in Serbia right now with soldiers doing what these kids have done for whatever reason or reasons. Do these soldiers all have "bad parents"? I doubt it. And I have to admit, likely not too too many of them have a drug problem either. So why? - 16:04:47 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:BECAUSE..humans have a mean streak like our primate cousins. If we don't get our way we act out, some of us violently. It's human nature at it's worse. Can we control it, sometimes.. But it still happens... in the name of love, peace(which is really oxymoronic), religion, race,.... Again..why? Because we want to. - 16:12:35 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- How come your so quiet on this? - 16:14:09 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson---Oyez, oyez--:MARLENE: Your disclaimer, "There are a lot more influences out there than parents now-a-days," is exactly my point. Child development theorists know that a kid's personality is pretty much formed by age 4-5 yrs; I don't think it's asking too much for parents to be particularly watchful and nurturing during those years, when they _can_ and _should_ be. Down this way, parents have been found pecuniarily liable for their children's illegal escapades, whether the kids vandalize, make bomb threats, necessitate massive rescue efforts when youngsters decide to go off-trail for 'extreme' skiing or 'adventurous' hiking, etcetera. The judges' (see, I don't _have_ to be one; it's already done for me) decisions have been predicated upon the facts: 1) parents have a uniquely important job to do in raising their children, and 2) making parents responsible for the quality of that job is sensible and necessary. Agree to disagree if you must, Marlene, but the buck must stop somewhere, and home seems a fine place by me. My wife & I are staking not only my daughters' lives & reputations on that, but also our own. As Voltaire wrote, "Il faut cultiver notre jardin." And, to continue the metaphor, as a _kindergarten_ it begins. - 16:33:36 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:STEVEN - I had posted quite a long message this morning in regards to Grant's post. It seems to have gone missing. Maybe he can retrieve so as to avoid redundancy. - 16:37:06 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I was afraid that would happen sooner or later.. that a post would come in as I was deleting the spam. I'm afraid it is lost. I'll make a concerted effort to ban him/her. I'm sorry. - 16:43:34 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- I agree that parents do play a huge role on how to raise their children to be a responsible members of society but remember that there does come a time when kids decide to break from parents. They normally reject most of what their parents hold valuable initially but then return to what they've been taught in their younger years as they mature into their 20s. This is actually what a friend of mine has observed being a psychiatrist and working in a youth institution for many years. Until you've walked in a parent's "who's kid has done something terrible" shoes, how can you make such a blanket comment? - 16:44:53 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:jaywilson - "What is the problem? I see it as a lack of community, concurrent with America's addiction to individualism and personality over character and ideals." "Excuse me; I've got my own family to keep together, thank you." These are your exact words, said in the same post. Which is the correct statement. If you have only your only your own family to concern yourself with, how can you castigate the lack of community? I like the old adage "it takes a whole village to raise a child". - 16:48:56 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I agree with the whole village to raise a child. The parent's group I belonged to worked very hard together as well as with community to try to keep our kids out of gangs and into more positive activities. We held weekend sports activities, camping, fashion shows, picnics...and just plain going out for a soda with someone else's kid. We did try to get social workers involved in these activites too but because they only worked "days" and no "weekends" they declined most of the invitations. Some of the parents in the group were teachers so they talked other teachers into coming out which was helpful. So I know there are a whole bunch of good parents out there with difficult children but we can only control so much and do our best. Anyone who has raised one or more children to maturity with love and caring can vouch for that. Of course that isn't to say there aren't irresponsible parents because there certainly are those. What I find absolutely amazing that many kids who have irresponsible parents are actually responsible kids. Maybe that is because the village has played a big part in their lives, maybe it's because they reject irresponsibility. - 17:07:21 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--well,well--:MARLENE and JOETTE: Yes, it takes a village, as the adage says, and with that statement we are in agreement. My wife and I are longstanding volunteers to our community because we recognize that fact. But we also recognize that home is where the start is. - 17:25:07 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- I am also in agreement that "home is where the start is". I think the point we are in disagreement here with is that a good start and a loving and caring upbringing is not a guarantee that our children will never act out in a violent way. How do we know that these boys didn't have the good start and caring and loving parents that are supposed to prevent this? - 17:44:52 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:I also have done a great deal of volunteer work in the community which I feel good about but I was also one of the parents who had the time to do so. Some don't. But that doesn't make me a judge and jury of those parents who couldn't or wouldn't for whatever reasons. Are you a teacher Jay? For some strange reason I find some teachers feel they are the opponents of parents. I come from the day when parents and teachers respected each other but for some strange reason it seems to be the opposite these days. Could it be in the teaching education? - 17:50:40 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Steven:MARLENE <<>> yes I agree that drugs alter your mind, but not in the way I believe you are thinking. You dont drop acid, lose all your morality while tripping and decide to go out and shoot someone because it will look neat. Even on many hits of acid, you dont see little demons telling you to take a weapon and go out and kill anyone. If you look at suicide statistics the largest majority of these people have been drinking alcohol, but the alcohol just made it easier because they were planning on doing it anyway. Meth has been around for a long time, and has never been associated with killings or death (unless gangs, or gov. gangs are fighting over profits). When a person is on heroin they dont want to do anything but sit in their house and nod. Marijuana is one of the more harmless 'drugs' in existence. You dont smoke a joing, then want to pack a new clip and run out to your local school and start shooting kids. These kids were fucked up anyway, and IMHO if the parents couldnt see that their kids had problems, were making pipe bombs, and had a slight social problem, then the parents should be stroked also, IMHO. I have a large knowledge base concerning drugs from personal experience, and a considerable amount of research. Drugs as jaywilson has stated I believe are a symtom, not the disease. - 18:09:25 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:Now finally, because I have to go to work, I feel so sorry for the parents and families of the victims of yesterday's shooting as well as the parent's of these two boys. They must be going through complete hell right now. Instead of bashing parents or blaming why not try to stop racism, hate, drugs and availability of weapons of destruction. - 18:12:33 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I agree,pot should be the drug that's legal, not alcohol. I have yet to hear about someone becoming violent on pot. But I suppose the other drugs affect individuals in individual ways. Again, how do we know what the parents knew about what their kids were up to. Right now I know kids that go to church every Sunday, behave at home and at school but when out and about are into all kinds of illegal and dangerous activities(that their parents have no idea they are up to). When I was a kid, the community would tell the parents what the kids were up to. Nowadays people think it's none of their business. I'm sure your parents didn't know exactly what you were up to and mine didn't know what I was up to. I went to great lengths to keep my activities unknown to my parents. I stand with the position that until we know what these kids parents supported or didn't support, I'm not about to bash them. - 18:23:33 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

jaywilson--the wild hair a-parent--:MARLENE: Yes, I'm a teacher, but not an opponent of parents (I _am_ a parent, remember?); nonetheless, I have seen, during my 20 yrs. of experience teaching in private, public, and independent high schools and colleges, that more and more parents are truly in the dark as to how to bring up kids. It is, as one wag put it, "the single most important job in the world still entrusted to rank amateurs." Not that I want the job for any other than my own kids--no, sirree--but given the standards most schools are tasked to measure up to--and those standards are indeed higher than they were 10, 20, or 50 years ago--, I find an appalling _lack_ of standards among the parents of my students. In fact, most parents who attend our quarterly Parent-Teacher conferences are looking for some kind of validation from us as to their kids' _behavior_--not necessarily their kids' academic output, which most teachers like to think they're hired to address. As a result, schools are becoming pseudo-sociological Petri dishes in which the culture is youth culture, and not the preparation for adult culture it was intended to be. Yeah, it takes a village, but it _really_ takes a _smart_ village. - 18:26:22 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> my statement about the parents was a knee jerk reaction. You are correct, I dont know anything about the parents. However, I hope that I am in tune enough with my kid to know when he/she has a severe problem. Yes, I also did alot of things my parents would not have approved of, but my parents were always there for me when I needed them, and I was brought up to respect life (as long as it was christian life,hehe). I'm sorry but it is obvious that these kids were a little off their rocker, and their parents should have been close enough to realize this. Maybe I am pipe dreaming, but I would like to think that I will be close enought to my son when he is 16 that he can come to me with problems. Hopefully my life experiences on the street, with gangs, and with drugs will give me a little head start on theses issues with my child unlike many parents. My parents had no clue about any of those things. All they ever said was "dont do it". That doesnt cut it with a teenager. If my parents said 'doint do it', I did it with in an hour. I think have these experiences will allow me to tell when there are problems, and how to deal with them. I was raised in a house were everything was bad: sex, drugs, rock & roll, minorities, liberals, vietnam vets, AD&D etc. etc. I hopefully will be able to educate my son so that he knows what is right and wrong and can make an educated decision when it comes time to choose. Of course, I assume that all carefully laid plans go to hell so to speak when you actually have to deal with it. As I have always said "there is no blueprint to parenting". - 19:52:49 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:nothing fails like prayer.... - 20:43:04 on 21 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Marleen;It seems that they were picked on by the athletic jock types, thats the reason for targeting them.But a infatuation with hitler most likely brought out the modivation to kill all enemies.The shrinks are all talking about stopping the bullies in schools but they all to often pick on the victims. This might have been the case here.They might have gone after the wrong party only to alienate them into organizing (this is an extreme case) against everything.We talked about this before on MIMM2.The verbal and physical abuse that bullies do to children has to be stopped by all school officials and adults whenever they come across it.I was tormented when I was A kid and it is hell on earth.I can see how, when no one steps in to stop it how kids can group together to vent there rages.What I am hearing now about targeting the misfits and geek types for counseling, this is a bad thing as it won't stop the bullies. - 3:01:49 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - I agree with you. I can understand counselling for the "geeks" after the fact, but the snot nosed bullies are the problem. Why not be proactive as opposed to reactive? If a person who treats others with less respect than they expect to be treated is allowed to do their damage, what's the point? I think most young people do feel real rage at some point in their life, but they learn to keep it in check. Those that don't will act upon it. I can't help but feel sorry for those kids that did this yesterday. I keep wondering what was going through their minds as they planned this, how they felt when they got out of bed yesterday morning, knowing what havoc they would wreak upon their community, if they really understood that this would be the last day of their lives, what their final thoughts were before they put the guns to their heads. And I sympathize with their parents, because they will be social pariahs from here on in, as shocked and traumatized at their loss, and will have to deal with the guilt of what they didn't notice about their children for the rest of their lives. - 3:18:51 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Your absolutely right, there is no blueprint for parenting and no matter how much some parents try, kids still have their own minds. Our kids aren't pieces of clay that we can mould to our own liking no matter how much we try. I hope you can help your kids if they have some tough problems and I hope they let you into their lives when they are going through the "breaking away from parents" stage. All you can do is your best. The rest is up to them. I'm glad you have decided to wait and hear what these parents were like before you comdemn them. I was lucky enough to have parents who were not racist and not overly religious. I did have parents though that were very strict about their rules. If I broke them when I was small I got spanked. If I broke them when I was older, I maybe got spanked and also lost any little priviledge I had. I was raised by a great aunt and uncle not by my mom and they were extremely old fashioned toward the parents ruling the household. I was loved though and I learned respect. - 3:51:39 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..it's sad but I think this is the way it went:DOUG- I was a geek too so I understand what being picked on was like but true geeks don't drive BMW's and pick on others. These guys were into the dark side of the youth culture, into gothic, into death, into songs about death, into people like Hitler(someone everyone else dislikes), into weapons (no one really likes them either). In other words into really anti-social things. While some kids are into this subculture, most don't act out it's darkest fantasies. Remember the Kurt Cobain(sp) thing. Many kids killed themselves to reach nirvana. Kids are really emotional at this age and do some really stupid things. And things I might add that are just for the moment no thought about consequences or tomorrow. Although I suspect a drug high, kids get emotionally high and the high is fed by more action causing more emotion. They live for the moment. One of the biggest highs is control over others, can you imagine the high they felt that day. Having control over everyone of their victims? Joette has questioned what was going through their minds. IMO, it was likely the best feeling they could ever imagine, total control, the highest high and so society couldn't spoil their high they took their own lives another control they took away from us. Unfortunately I think they were happy in their own way when they died. I doubt there was any guilt at all. - 4:14:24 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:I was changing the brakes on my car this afternoon and when I rapped my knuckles between the concrete floor and the lug wrench, I thought of the pain we all experience in life. We have ways of dealing with emotional pain too and the way I see it is our boys, most boys of the world, have not learned how to contain and redirect their reactions to pain. These shootings are not a teenager problem, they are a young man problem. We have failed the boys and they are lost to reality. Where is the church in all of this? Why they have been there all this time and they have failed to persuade the boys that the church is the answer. Like Joettes, "Nothing Fails Like Prayer, " I say, nothing fails like the church too. The answer? Like floride in the water, force feed Prozac to all boys between the ages of 12 and 17 or sprinkle it on their pizza's in the school cafeteria. That should solve the male agression problem. - 5:51:02 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- True that young men don't cry! And true when they are in some kind of pain many lash out just as these boys did the other day. They cured their pain with the self-administered remedy of having control over others. Kids like these, when they finally go to a youth facility or the like and have to face their pain and can do nothing else but do that DO cry and healing can begin. The pain may be minor to most people. For instance, they may not look like the poster guy for Tommy Hill, but it's pain that's there none the less. As Joette suggests and even as Clinton has stated, we need to help the above "for instance" realize that it doesn't matter what he looks like. - 12:43:05 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ALL: I was out and about for the day and involved w/baseball for the eve 'til 10:30. The 13-14 yr.ol'team do very well on the field. Of them, perhaps one concerns me. I don't imagine he'd be a school shooter upper, but he does have trouble clearly understanding and then accepting his limitations. Or, in other words he doesn't like pine time. I suspect he's spoiled, probably an only child and of old parents. I mention this because J.Wilson mentioned the problem of parents and schools, this particular equation is loaded with misimpression and ill conceived expectations. I for one, and some who I know do similarly, do not count on or expect "schools" to teach my\our offspring. In my view I can not nor do I accept that anyone wants my offspring to know and learn, if they did they'd not tell lies such as, columbus "discovered" america. The very notion of discovery could and would lead them- my offspring, and others to value that idea in ways, that we may never know, more meaningful to themselves and all else. Instead, it looks like others see it important to increase the number of cops and prisons. I like to think I prepare those on the teams I work with, the young men, to be good thoughtful people. Do I? I don't know. - 15:18:02 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:DARRELL: a few weeks back, in a local newspaper a letter to the editor addressed the problem of guns and youth. I won't recount its entirety here but will quote a part of what the writer wrote who portrayed the problem as that of, "young 'men' trying to be 'boys'." This could become seen, possibly, in a more mature light away from the darknesses and 'tyranny of the senses' if we can consider that, dogma and fear move the damaged; logic and reason move the reasonable. This may be an outrageous suggestion, but maybe better thinking would serve all who are "really" concerned if -thinking- were promoted, why chemicals? - 16:30:16 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Once again all you can do to help the teens that are on your ball team think is to do your beat to promote it. The problem is that not all teens are into sports and for some reason sports seems to be the only thing that is promoted for a thing to do for teens. Some kids love music or arts. Some programs that we've tried here are in music and arts but for some kids even that doesn't interest them. Some kids are still in love with war games and other types of violent activites. They love movies about violence or music with violence. They see power in it. All we can do is to try to introduce them to other things. I know some here think that it isn't music or movies that promote behavior but I disagree. Just like ads on billboards promote safe sex and not smoking, music like Marilyn Manson(sp) that says "kill yourself, your already dead" and movies like that new one out (I can't think of the name of it now) that stars Reeves in a cyber-violent role, promotes violence. So do these white sepremeists. I believe in free speach, but shit, to what degree? To the point of hate and the hate being played out to cause destruction. There has to be a limit! Young minds are vunerable, especially at a time when they are making the transition from parents thinking and doing for them to them thinking and doing for themselves. - 18:23:07 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:ALL; yes sports does seem to be a cure all for the problems of getting youth to tow the line.It certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid. In both towns that I've lived the youth sport is a real nut case.It promotes lots of practice and very little real play time for children,starting at age 5yrs.This is over the top to expect a 5yr old to go to practice 3 times a week and play in the real game 10 mins on saturday or sunday.Hell we used to have unorganized sports everyday when I was Kid(baseball in the summer and hockey in the winter).If I was growing up today I'd hate organized sports with a passion. - 19:30:08 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene..the kind of sports I use to play:DOUG- Ye! Ye! Yes, what happened to the fun? Our bases were cow flops in the pasture and our puck was anything that looked like one. It didn't really matter if you had skates either, boots were fine. - 19:42:21 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: Here, the community programs that I've been affiliated with limit team practice to not more than 3 per week, I do two and offer a third for those want to practice more. Also, these programs have an all play regulation but I have never had a problem with the 'reg' becuz I start all on the bench and field a minimum number o'times. I find the big man, the star, the franchise player mentality bad for any and all. This type mentality don't want the play of the game, but seem to imagine there are other things "to be had". - 19:57:23 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I find the "messiah" mentality a terribe notion. I don't do things nor do I think of things for all. Of such I see images of the mouse running in a spinning wheel. - 20:02:52 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Did you see the drawing that one of these kids made on the CNN news page? They were into Manson and Manson's idea of an anti-christ superstar. Creepy but no more creepy than people having idols of a dead man on a cross. All these poor people are thanking god that they survived the shooting but why, if there was a god, are they not thinking why did others not survive? Why did god not prevent this from happening at all. - 21:15:56 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: oh it can only be that the xtian godthing has been recorded- see bible's decalogue, as being selfish. So, it must follow that its- the godthing, adherents and supporters, that are thankful they didn't die, well, they must be like their godthing, also selfish. - 22:21:47 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:The other side of the coin - when I was a kid, I learned to play baseball before I could talk almost. My father had his shot at "the show" and because of his own weaknesses, threw it away. He decided his kids would be the best ball players my town had ever seen. By the time I was 10, I was playing on a women's senior team (the highest level in my area for amateur). Now this was only fastball, as here where I live baseball is unheard of for women, although my father had me playing baseball with the boys. We had 3 practices a week, 2 games, and if you didn't show for practise, you didn't play the games. It wasn't any of this wishy-washy house league stuff. Sometimes I can hear my father saying "Get your glove Jo", because every night between April and November, he would make me pitch to him. If we went on a vacation, I had to take my glove. He would gather all the cottagers around to show the men what a good pitcher I was. I was the star in my town. The team I played for was poor, and I, as a little punk, managed to win the first game in the short history of the team. I'll never forget the feeling when my team-mates raised me in the air, the crowd cheered and laughed. It was heady stuff. We won championships. I went on to play for other teams in other cities, still pitching my heart out, having the umps eating out of my hands, winning championships. So, some of us do have the "star mentality", but it is something that is hammered into you, and when you are good at something, really, really good at something, why not be acknowledged for it instead of everyone being resentful? I showed up at practices, I showed up for all the games, I gave 110% always. My team-mates liked me, they knew I worked hard. I had a lot of fun most of the time, and I miss that. The only thing I have found detrimental about it all in my old age is the fact that I am still too intent on playing well that I don't have the patience for recreational leagues. I've tried, and hated them. So, I get out my glove with anyone willing to play with me now, and I still give it 110%. - 23:10:12 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Rob:Darrell: Not wanting to sound anally retentive here, but the "prozac" thing is possibly one of the worst things you could do. Prozac is an agitator and in agressive personalities it can make them violent- I've seen it first hand with my psychopathic brother and did some reading on the subject at the time. No... the way I envisage a "solution" (at least in so far as the human condition can be "solved") is by society coming to terms with man being a member of the animal kingdom. The attitude of man being something sacred, I believe, will fail in exactly the same degree as such a view differs from that whereby man is a mere animal. If people make unrealistic expectations of human beaviour then they can expect to encounter realistic disappointments. This I see when I look at the disbelief amongst religious communities after such events as the recent shootings. - 23:41:20 on 22 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:OK CARL, "let them eat cake" AND think about it too. OK ROB, "let them eat St. Johns Wart" instead. JOETTE, that was a really neat story about your childhood sports interest. I was never encouraged by my Dad to participate in any sport and it was never aired on our TV's or radios in the house or car. He just lacked interest, however, I put myself on the right track and Varsity Lettered on the Polo Team, Gymnastics,and like MARLENE'S music, to be "balanced," I was on the Chess Club, Marching Band, Concert Band, Jazz Band and I got to mingle with both the football jocks, the "in crowd," cheerleaders and the nerds simultaneously. Some might differ, but I think I turned out "OK." These gun toting juveniles in Littleton, CO had not put out the effort to mentally adjust and physically adapt to what life can give. I say, "You get what you settle for!" - 1:01:43 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- What it really comes down to is choices and these kids made the choice they did, no one, not even their parents made that choice. You hit the nail on the head. JOETTE- My cousin and you would have made Canadian baseball heros, lol! She loved baseball and I remember my dad(uncle) taking time out of his busy farm life to play a little ball with his niece. She played for the Manitoba woman's league for a few years. My dad would play ball with me but when he threw it to me I normally ducked or jumped out of the way. I was afraid of the ball, lol! The one sport I was good at and loved when I was a kid was soccer. The other ones I just played for fun and I was less than an average player in them too. I guess what I'm saying is there should be teams for the good players but there should also be teams for the not so good players who love to play or just want to play. In the schools here, one has to be good to make the team, same as the community clubs. Also sometimes the cost is prohibitive. It isn't played for fun anymore. - 1:14:44 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:ROB- And unfortunately to expect every human to be a social butterfly is also unrealistic. Sometimes for reasons only known to them or for no reason what-so-ever people do violent things no matter how they've been raised or taught. Some people are just anti-social and at varying degrees. The hope is though, these people are not so anti-social as to carry out something like the shooting and if they are, there are few of them. The other hope is to recognize these people and try to put a damper on them acting out their thoughts. - 1:24:35 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:ALL; don't you find the parents are spoiling all the fun in organized sports for kids by being to competitive.They have a win a all costs mentality, which spoils the whole thing. Playing ball should be fun, but over and over parents have to win.Of course not all kids are interested in sports, and there has to be other outlets that won't get them into trouble.If any one thing is to blame for the break up of the family, it's the economic system where both parents are working.Even when they don't have to it's a stigma for a parent to stay home and rasie the kids.Granted in most famlies both parents have to work.The liberal 60's didn't lead to the break up of the family unit, but inflation and capitalism really proved it's undoing. - 2:38:48 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - don't blame capitalism for a social problem. I bet the majority of two parent families are in a position of one person staying home with the babies, IF they are willing to settle for a smaller house, a smaller car, fewer steaks on the barbecue. It's relative. In the 50's, women stayed home, the husband made $1 an hour, and they managed. Today, those that choose to work to have better material goods groan because they can't make ends meet with a combined hourly rate of $50. No, it's the attitude. Everybody wants to be the "Jones'" now. And they are tired, all the time, no time for the kids they seem to think they should have even if they won't or can't make the time for them. It's nobody's fault, and everybody's fault that the "family unit" has crumbled. Mind you, at least we are recognizing more interesting mixes in families now, not just the man, woman and 2.3 children. (for any single parents here, I am speaking specifically about those couples that choose to work...I know the situation for single parents is different, as I was one of those for many years) - 2:58:37 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG and JOETTE- The problem is that there are many many people out there making just a little over the min. wage which BTW has just gone up to $7 per hour here. If these people only have just one child..apt. rent $500 per month and then utilities, food $400 per month, tansportation??? even a bus pass is $60 per month then clothing, medicine, dentist, eyeglasses, maybe if anything at all is left over, a movie which is $10 for each adult and $5 for the child. How about birthdays and mythmas. Say the child is going to school, all the other kids have $200 running shoes, is this child going to be the only one without. So for to make ends meet as well as just a few extras mom needs to work. Mom makes $7 per hour but the daycare is at least half her wages. Now they are both making $14 per hour which puts them at 24% income tax. It's alright for the guy that makes over $20 an hour but some familes don't make that combining their wages. Now if they want a house..this is Canada and heating for me with an 1100sq.ft home is $180 per month, how will they afford a home. How about a car? Gas here is .56 a liter *4= $2.25 a gal appox. then the vehicle it's self is about double what it costs in America because of our dollar. People HAVE to work here, no choice. - 3:20:55 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Rob:Darrell: I wasn't aware he had one, but even so do you think there would be enough to go around? (just jesting ;) JOETTE: I'm inclined to agree, and even see a capitalist attitude as the "solution" if anything. Human social behaviour is evolving, so I doubt we will ever get back to the "good ole days" though that is not to say we can't have people being happier in the future. I think people just have to learn (else it will have to evolve naturally) how to exploit the way the majority of humans will act, in order to get the results they desire. I think that is why capitalism succeeded over communism, as it does just that. - 8:56:20 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE - the example you cite isn't the norm. Yes, some people are considered "working poor", but you know that our social assistance will help if necessary. And what about the kids with $200 running shoes? Is it necessary for the kid to be walking around in Nikes when Keds will do? No, it's the attitude again. Everybody has to keep up with the rich guy on the hill. What good are we doing our kids by making luxuries an everyday thing? I know, kids want to be the same as the others, but shouldn't they be made to earn these expensive running shoes, or to at least learn that these things don't come easily. Kids have to learn the value of a dollar for their own sake, not so that their parents can stroke their own egos. I do not agree with you that both parents have to work in Canada. Sure, it is expensive to live here, but most receive wages that are more adequate than most. Did you know that Canada has the most strikes per capita than any other country in the world? Considering we also have a very high unemployment rate (9% currently) it doesn't make much sense. We don't have a middle class anymore. We have the $30 an hour posties, auto workers, highest paid medical practitioners and legal professionals (and us been counters), and we also have the working poor. It isn't the governments fault. It's the Canadian "spoiled brat" attitude. - 11:30:33 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:All, I don't think it's entirely the "keeping up with the Jones" syndrome that's driving most people to combine their incomes. Consider the primal fear not "keeping up with the known's" It's a known fact that without money-- one lives closer to the wall of death than otherwise. It's a known fact that without money-- one risks living a less healthier life. It's a known fact . . . (you fill in the blanks) And another thing, this "good ol days" you all have been talking about is really a recent phenomonon. Most recent, The WWII generation was the luckiest of all in that they, for one example of a plethora, bought homes for 6,000 and when they retired sold them for 185,000 and all the while, most of the moms got to stay at home. Not all, there are exceptions yes, but most did. My mother NEVER worked. Income was sufficient for a family of 5 UNTIL . . . Until greed got a hold of EVERYBODY. There was no reason for houses to inflate to 185,000. That's ludicrous! No 2by4 is worth that and no "market value" is either. What's my point? My point is we've lived in difficult times of "get it all for ME- to hell with the rest of the community" My other and final point of observation is that before this time, don't kid yourselves, women worked as hard as the men to survive. They weren't "there" for the kids all the time either. Many a kid had to ride the backs of mom in the field but most were kept near the home fires with the surrogate moms, the elderly. It was THOSE grandfolks that put the mental health cohesiveness and pride in the village. Even so, even past generations had the idiots to contend with. Now, who are the grandparents today? They are the WWII generation, have very little to do with raising the kids and are out with their greed generated wealth . . Playing. Shirking their responsibility of community and their Baby Boomer childrens' children. Playing golf in Arizona, playing the stock market, playing and R&Ring and traveling and and and and and All the while, their grandkids, as well as them, are lost souls and the human world deteriates to moralessness. Let's all accept the fact that in order to feel good about it all isn't life a combination of Living, loving, losing, learning, laughing and sometimes letting go. humanity. Today - 13:33:55 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:All, I don't think it's entirely the "keeping up with the Jones" syndrome that's driving most people to combine their incomes. Consider the primal fear not "keeping up with the known's" It's a known fact that without money-- one lives closer to the wall of death than otherwise. It's a known fact that without money-- one risks living a less healthier life. It's a known fact . . . (you fill in the blanks) And another thing, this "good ol days" you all have been talking about is really a recent phenomonon. Most recent, The WWII generation was the luckiest of all in that they, for one example of a plethora, bought homes for 6,000 and when they retired sold them for 185,000 and all the while, most of the moms got to stay at home. Not all, there are exceptions yes, but most did. My mother NEVER worked. Income was sufficient for a family of 5 UNTIL . . . Until greed got a hold of EVERYBODY. There was no reason for houses to inflate to 185,000. That's ludicrous! No 2by4 is worth that and no "market value" is either. What's my point? My point is we've lived in difficult times of "get it all for ME- to hell with the rest of the community" My other and final point of observation is that before this time, don't kid yourselves, women worked as hard as the men to survive. They weren't "there" for the kids all the time either. Many a kid had to ride the backs of mom in the field but most were kept near the home fires with the surrogate moms, the elderly. It was THOSE grandfolks that put the mental health cohesiveness and pride in the village. Even so, even past generations had the idiots to contend with. Now, who are the grandparents today? They are the WWII generation, have very little to do with raising the kids and are out with their greed generated wealth . . Playing. Shirking their responsibility of community and their Baby Boomer childrens' children. Playing golf in Arizona, playing the stock market, playing and R&Ring and traveling and and and and and All the while, their grandkids, as well as them, are lost souls and the human world deteriates to moralessness. Let's all accept the fact that in order to feel good about it all isn't life a combination of Living, loving, losing, learning, laughing and sometimes letting go. humanity. Today - 13:33:59 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Life is learning not to hit the add button twice too. - 13:36:17 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- Good point. I was raised on a farm with two "stay at home parents" but do you think they had any more time than parents had today. When I was really small my grandmother helped as you have suggested and when I got older I was on the farm working before school and after school. I know Joette has suggested that people make big wages here in Canada and two incomes in families that make these wages likely is just to keep up with the Jone's. But in the area I am from very few people make over $10 per hour. It's a tough go to afford a house to raise the kids in and a tough go to feed and clothe them. True our welfare system will keep people but one is required not to work if they want to be on welfare. Actually those on welfare make more income than someone working min. wage and that's why many people opt for welfare. That's part of the reason why middle income workers are paying such high taxes. No, moms working in this area don't do so because they want to, they have to. - 14:01:52 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- No I too disagree with the $200 runners and the absolutely ridiculous price of Tommy Hill but those who do have these jobs of $30 per buy their kids these things. For every $30 an hour parent here there are five $10 an hour ones. Every kid of the $10 parents want the same things as the kid with the $30 parents and if they don't they are considered as you say "the working poor". For some of the kids who's parents can't afford these things, the kids have taken to taking these things from others by force. It don't believe that you can even fathom the violence here in Manitoba on the streets. I know one of our talk radio shows asked people if this kind of school shooting could happen here in Manitoba. I wasn't surprised that most people said no because of our gun laws. How quickly people forget! There was a school shooting only 10 years ago. A student shot another one to death, injured two others and shot a teacher besides. That teacher was the one to removed the gun from the kid or it could have been much worse. That same incident could have gone world wide but of course it didn't. In Canada no one will admit violence happens here. As I have mentioned, people I personally know have been shot, knived and beaten because of gang violence. It happens a lot here. It also happens a lot in Quebec and Alberta. I can't believe it doesn't happen in Ontario. - 14:15:19 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ABC: Perhaps there is a kind o'saddness in the CO shoot. In the sunup to sundown time- as its known, however, creatures just go on becuz'they do. The dead may become 'a' sound of silence. I wonder who "want" of the dead? ABC news was crowing about how it was the most watched tv-medium of all possible, as tho'that was really meaningful! This "look at me" strikes me as one of those, so what things. But on the other hand, there are the things that the human creature will do, such as placing flowers at some quasi-shrine spot, or praying. I guess these are just indicators of the helplessness or is it uselessness, of one's concern for the past. Is it but an empty/nil concern which the human critters of ABC deemed worthy of reporting and then saying look what we did. That seems about like the wierd kid that liked to find and show everyone 'his' found dead things. - 15:14:30 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:HELP WANTED: So just after the CO shoot, o'course the religious types stepped forward and with eyes 'closed' to pray- as J.Falwell did, and add to the stir, their own confusion. A catholic rep on Foxnews said the human creature is naturally evil. A mormon rep on NBC {I seem to recall} said that the human creature is naturally good. JF also tossed into the fray that dead jc thing, a god, the h.ghost all for the family values batter[for the cake] thing. When I see these images I slowly shake my head in utter amazement, that grownup probably well educated adults could sit there and allow a fellow human to engage such mindlessness utterances. - 15:35:32 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:JOETTE; we don't have the social programs here in the states any more.The min wage isn't 7dph but close to 6dph or under, it depends on the location.When you add it all up most people by by shear economics shouldn't have children. If all those "free market" twits were right no body who was poor would reproduce.But those egg heads are full of it, the real world doesn't work on economics alone, emotion plays a big factor in shaping our lives.And rents are closer to 800-1000 dollars even for a slumy area around Boston. - 15:38:22 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:How did we know this was going to come up??? In the wake of the recent incident in Colorado, parents in Manitoba are concerned with the fact that something like this will happen here (again, btw). The cure? Why, bring the bible back into the classroom!!! While we don't force the bible in the classroom here anymore, if enough parents vote for it back into a particular school, they bring it back. Kids who don't attend the religion class are of course atomatically segregated from the rest in a sense. - 16:10:27 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- It's too bad that people are economically prohibitted from having children. All the lawyers, teachers and other professionals out there have to realize that what they see as affordable others in the lowly minimum wage bracket see as cost prohibitive. Those in a higher earning bracket seem to be in La La Land when it comes to understanding the struggle of the lower income worker. It takes their every penny to live and that budget doesn't include one steak either. While I'm not against capitalism, I am peeved with the guy who can afford that steak saying to some hardworking family who can't, just cut back. They can't cut back. There is nothing TO cut back. - 16:21:59 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - I happen to be one of those economic types you see as the problem. Should not my post-secondary education, my working 60 to 80 hours a week, and the chance that one wrong moves costs me my career not have any value attached to it? Should I settle for $10 per hour even though the market allows me to earn $50 an hour, so that I am on par with the others? Do I not pay twice as many taxes as the others? Doesn't this mean anything? I am all for social programs, and I understand that many governments are collapsing under the weight of them (Canada is an excellent example), but I (for example), contribute more than my fair share. Shouldn't that be thrown into the mix? I disagree very strongly about equal distribution of wealth. All it does is take the incentive away from people to work hard, to achieve lofty goals. Why should the higher paid professions suffer in order to ensure that those that aren't in a position to earn the same? It's all a matter of supply and demand. I am a very ethical person, and by my own choice, I will share what I have (if and when I get my bills paid off :), but I can't be forced to do so. That is a personal decision, not one that can be mandated by a higher authority. - 16:35:05 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:Just a correction here on my part. The minimum wage in this province is $6ph. If one makes under $30 thousand they are taxed at 28%, from $30-$60, it's 44% and over the $60, I'm not sure, I'll find out. The reason this is so fresh in my mind is that I just was at the accountant's last night getting my income tax done and I actually asked about some of this. - 17:07:02 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:THE REAL CRIME IS THIS- our basic deduction is $6,400.00. What a joke! That's barely the rent money for a small apartment in a seedy area of town. - 17:45:12 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ADM: was the archive feature somehow a bit more involved than first anticipation? - 17:54:16 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

ADM:CARL-- Was goof. They're back now. Pardon... - 18:58:36 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: seem to see in recollection that you've mentioned Dawkin's meme ideas, I like that idea. Another writer has written a complete book of that idea tilted,"The Meme Machine". I just read a chapter, made available for obvious capitalistic reasons, that offers details of that idea as the author Susan J. Blackstone plans to wield it. I first saw the notion in the Selfish Gene, and thought of it as an idea, easily applicable in wider domains of thought beyond biology. What have you seen? - 19:31:15 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ToFORUM: While the CO shoot was deadly for the few now dead the living will have to watch those who seek to lead and probably do so by control. The concern I have here, Gore types and surely Jr.'s too, will open discussion with their 'followers' for ways to control the internet. Among those listening and who in history like to control, are the religious. These guys and the political groups them, both types will blindly go along with their arguments{see family values} and then problems will happen. This I-net thing is a way that could be used to exchange information just we here from differing parts of the globe do even now. Information that is so easily available is it also a danger to those who want to lead and make a difference? If not today, will those who today want to lead seek to guide and limit, wherever and 'whenever' the information the common human creature can have, tomorrow? This is what I can see as a definite possibility as these probably well educated tv reporters ask and refer to the I-net as "the place" where anti-social occurences as CO and the OK bobmbing and so on, supposedly have gotten their other information. Does this concern any? - 21:37:59 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:a bit of fun - 22:58:38 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Carl; yeh but every red blooded american lad knows how to make a pipe bomb.It's tongue and cheek but true.When I was young kids made them and some lost fingers and hands making them, but we didn't have any manuals or internets to blame. They also used to lynch blacks and jews alot more too.And McVeigh and Nichols learned how to make real bombs that work in the army.I mean don't you know how to make a zip gun or is it a lost art in out prefabricated world.Also remember in Nam the VC defeated us with our own rubbish and there own creativity to make weapons.This sort of control will only create more groups that hate. - 23:25:25 on 23 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:I am watching TODAY right now, and there is a young man that was in that school in Denver. He was sitting with the one African-American that was killed, and he described what the shooters said before they shot him. He then went on to state that he lay on the pretending to be dead, and while doing so prayed to God to give him the strength to get through this ordeal. He stated that God spoke clearly to him, and the blessed message was "Get out of there". He and some others did get out, and he had a bit of a Moses air about him. He is thanking God for his being able to escape. Now, this young man's sister was killed in the shooting. I wonder if he is still talking to God, and if God has explained to him why his sister couldn't get out of there. Stupid bloody religion. - 13:23:32 on 24 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Who wants to go on TV and thank the "fight or flight" instinct? When he touches something hot, God probably speaks clearly to him and tells him to pull his hand away. - 13:33:49 on 24 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Joette. Didn't many of them pray with their mommy's before they went to school that day? Didn't the "Pray around the flag pole" people pray that day? Did not the CO ministers pray for God's mercy and safety the Sunday before? Didn't the Culumbine Campus Crusade for Christ group pray the day before? The whole student body, staff and janitors were praying and 13 died ANYWAY. I'm with you . . . "Stupid bloody religion" I still want to know about their grandparents I heard the hitler loving jewish boys grandad is dead now but if you hear of the others, I'd sure like to have the info passed on. Where were they in the kid's lives? Thank you. - 1:50:22 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Nothing fails like prayer.God speaking to that kid, my a-s.He was talking to himself.Campus Crusade for Christ is a neo fascist organization(this is the ad on TV about the power of living; it's been in our area for months),it is tied up with the Arthur D. Moss foundation (remember the moral majority?).The more I hear about this place the more I wonder if we are hearing the whole truth.What really went on in the years before this? - 4:37:01 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DOUG - while it doesn't excuse what the boys did, this is an interesting opposite view of the shooting. - 14:02:04 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DARRELL - your invoking the use of grandparents in the raising of children brings to mind debates I have had about this. When does a parent's responsibility end? Does having children mean that a person must give up any right to their lives? Once a child has reached the age of majority, does a parent still have to sell their soul to ensure that child stays on the straight and narrow? In my humble opinion, a parent has an obligation to ensure that their children are nurtured and loved, and raised to be free thinking, independant individuals. There has to be a point in a parent's life that they can then sit back and enjoy their freedom. Why should I, at such time as I become a grandparent, have to give my life up again to ensure that my grandchildren have appropriate daycare and the like? Sure, grandparents should be an extension of the family, should know what is going on with their grandkids, and if in a position to intervene when necessary do so, but it isn't fair to the grandparent, the parent or anyone else to assume that their own mission in life is to stay attached to their descendants to the degree you describe. So what if they winter in Arizona? If they have the resources to do so, haven't they earned that right? If every generation decides that their only mission in life is to bind themselves to each other, there will never be independence taught. - 14:10:45 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- The boy's story is so sadly true. It's a whole lot different from when I was a kid. I can not remember "the jocks" throwing stuff at we geeky hippies (our school was a country school and hippies were considered then as gothic is now). They definately had their comments though and I (even if I would have been good-looking enough) would have never been asked out by a jock. Nor did any of we "fringe" think of physically harming the jocks. All this "new psychology" says that children who were spanked are more violent. Well I would put my money on 95% of the kids when I was young were spanked yet we didn't do violent things as the kids do now. I would wager that most of these jocks as well as the boys who lashed back physically were NOT spanked. Lashing out is glorified in gang movies, action movies, hell most movies. Ask most of these kids who their favorite actor is and they will pick the one that stars in action movies. Although this does not "make" them violent, it "okays" violence and makes it look glamous. Schools are the same here. Kids hang around in groups at night because only 2 people are easy targets for the bullies. Kids work out at school, not to look good but to be strong enough to take care of themselves. If anyone has really talked to kids nowadays about these things they'd realize what this boy has to say is very true. I talk to lots of kids, for some reason they like to talk to me and tell me all about school, what goes on and what their fears and hopes are. Most are not like these two boys. I admit, I first thought..drugs..but it looks like these guys had been planning this for almost a year. What they did was premeditated and definately intentional. They were no better than the jocks who bugged them. Two wrongs don't make a right. In fact these two were the biggest bullies hurting a whole bunch of innocent kids not just the jocks. I can't believe that jocks picking on them drove them to this point. They wanted to do this. - 15:03:34 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Peter:-It's all the Americans' fault. Always - 17:18:52 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Joette, your point is well stated. I am not affixing "blame" on the grandparents but observing what, if any, impact their absence has on human youth. You, rightfully so, are looking at what impact staying close by would have on the grandparents too. Both merit a review and in doing so a compromise might be in order for the well being of humanity. Hillary Clinton's book, "It Takes a Village" has broached the subject as I've only read excerpts. I'm gonna go get it now though. I want my future grandkids to be loved and feel it too. Perhaps taking 4 two week vacations a year would suffice rather than a 6month one every year. Who am I to dictate what others do but when THEIR grandkids feel abandoned enough to kill my grandkids, we have a serious problem. This is not paranoia, it's becoming an American epidemic. Many Canadian G-parents do it too. Hope your children are doing OK in your country. OK, enough on the subject for now, but lets go deep in our search for a solution to bring stability and reality to the children today. - 17:18:52 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

PETER:..and if you can't somehow blame the Americans, blame the goddam Russians - 17:22:04 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Peter. Jesting? - 17:32:19 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- Although we agree on most things, I again say..how do we know these kids grandparents weren't there for them? And did these kids truly feel "abandoned" or were they just out for revenge or even out to play war games. If the grandparents and parents disliked violence and racism like I do and taught these boys this do you not think these kids had minds of their own. We are totally a product genetics and enviroment and that includes the world for most kids nowadays. There's a whole big world out there and with the communication industry as it is today these kids can experience it all. I would say if parents raised a child in a very sheltered world then " ie. very limited access to communication that was controlled by the parent, home schooled their kids, picked the kids friends, where they went, had knowledge of what they were doing, etc. etc.) I can see parental influence and grandparent influence having a big effect like it did years ago. BUT what would be said of such controlling parents these days? I can just hear it now! - 18:55:25 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:PETER- How about putting the blame on the individual who caused the problem? - 18:57:49 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

PETER::..Language is a social phenomenon, and its primary function is to communicate what is of social importance: language is practical. Distinctions between things and shapes and sizes are likely to have practical consequences; hence we have a large vocabulary for them. Differences of taste and smell, except for a few striking discrepancies, matter far less socially, and have few words for them. - 19:52:21 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:The posts attributed to Peter are not his (he is at work today and has no access to a computer there) - 20:43:42 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I assumed that. It's more like the personality that accused Carl of saying we should bomb everyone. I wonder who it could be?? He must really like Peter and respect his views to post under his name. - 21:46:17 on 25 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Joette; Thanks for the link.I see a ring of truth now.Not that it justifies the killings.In court they always want to know the motives, so as to not let it happen again.I remember being picked on by bullies and it was hell.I was 2years younger than most in my grade, and small to boot.Funny that I never thought of killing them as I had access to my fathers dozens of guns.I also knew how to use them too,if someone came at me with a gun I wouldn't have hesitated.But it never crossed my mind to take them out. Maybe it's the different times we live in.My question is where are the police, if people are being assaulted. - 4:13:53 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Study: Worshipers Live Longer.....:.....http://www.usatoday.com/news/ndssun03.htm - 12:57:28 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:ANON-- So I may assume that truth or reality is a secondary concern for you to maximizing your opportunities? - 13:05:53 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Rob (Generation-ex):Study: Well, you know what they say -"Better a lion for a day..." (or in this case 75 years). Or could it be once you hit 76 you go senile? - 14:41:27 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: I see now that the religious types are "using" the report o'the female killed after saying she believed in jc. I see also that one o'the parents may be charged or held responsible for the killing. Isn't it interesting that one o'the kids- klebold, was jewish. His grandpa has some place named or built in his honor for his jewishness. So was the kid really see Adolph as a hero or whatever the accounts of that angle mean to imply? This event is becoming quite a can o'worms. The part that perks my interest, nobody really wants a responsible party to come forward or be acclaimed. - 15:17:20 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> I completly understand being the target of bullies and/or a bully. When I was young I had a problem with bullies, a group of them at my school. What happened during those two years shaped and changed my life more than anything that comes to mind. The humiliation of going to school every day and being picked on in front of your piers, having your ass kicked after school, and having no idea what to do will drive anyone to snap, i did. I was raised by my parents to turn the other cheek, that you can talk your way out of any situation. Guess what, that doesnt work for shit with teenage boys, all they do is sense weakness, and kick your ass a little more. So, I had to take things into my own hands, which I did. I recieved my revenge with most of the bully's, but it did absolutly nothing to resolve the mental scars from two years of every day humiliation. What happened in CO is sad and disgusting, but I completly understand. It wasnt drugs, it wasnt manson music, it wasnt fantasy games or first person shooters, it was years of pent up frustration of being treated as a sub-human. For you see, in schools the bullies are looked up to, revered, and are quit often some of the more popular people. So that makes the humiliation two fold, you are picked on by the bully, but the good looking girls think your a dork becaues you cant defend yourself etc. It is sad, but true. Maybe, just maybe, the jerks that picked on these kids for years should feel a little of the guilt. - 15:33:37 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Deletions :-)

Darrell:A Bully story. Before High School, I was a nerd of sorts circa 1960's. This popular yet diminutive kid named Larry Norton was needing proof to be like the bigger jocks he was hanging around. He choose ME to pick on cause I was a nice average kid.This taunting, deriding, this public embarassment around other kids finally got me pissed enough that when he shoved me in front of the cheerleaders, I just went into this "see red" fight mode. After kicking his ass, I was found holding on to both of his ears and shoving his face into the grass. I now think I might have smoothered him before the rage subsided. Not really but it sure felt good winning against humiliation. I was equally amazed when his jock buddies pulled me off, brushed the dirt off my ripped shirt and sent me on my way. RESPECT? Up to that point, I prefered negotiation as I do today but . . . (the proverbial "but . . .") I really surprised myself that day and never had a problem with anyone from then on. I later Lettered in sports with the jocks AND joined the chess club with the nerds too. Life IS a matching of wits and weights. I've long since come to see that though the strong sometimes rule the weak, nevertheless, the SMART often rule the strong. I saw a bumper sticker last year that said. MY NERD KID WILL SOMEDAY FIRE YOUR STUPID BULLY - 16:54:46 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY01: Gee! I kinda liked that passage by the unknown PETER and now a 'CARL'. - 17:19:34 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Steven:GRANT <<>> looks like the spammer asshole got bored again. Please email this jerks IP so I can blast it. - 19:52:22 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :Steven <<>> where the heck is PapaSam?!? - 20:24:31 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I emailed Papasam because I wasn't sure whether he had the new address. He said he's been watching what's going on but just waiting until another Quake comes along, lol. As for the bully thing. I'm pretty sure it's a normal reaction to have to stand up to a bully, good for you. It does now sound like one of the parents of one of the teens knew he had a sawed off shotgun. Now if the parent didn't do anything about it then I can say it was totally irresponsible of them and they should take some blame for what happened. - 22:20:55 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY02: yea! too bad that poster of the language thing could not elaborate more with that idea. Thats the problem w/religious talk, there ain't much of a dialogue open to one who holds 'absolutes' as the note o'communication. Perhaps thats what I find appealing o'science things and stuff. If it hasn't been sed afore, then the initial observer hasta'come up w/words.i.e., ideas, that'll convey something worth repeating or sayin'better. What does one say to a comment like, "bless you."? I dare say that only the stupid can accept such words. - 22:51:20 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Put SOME blame on the grandparents - 23:00:10 on 26 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:DARRELL...and then what? Place some blame on the great-grandparents, great-greatgrandparents and so on? It has to stop somewhere. (my grandparents were all dead before I was born, and it didn't entice me to shoot people) - 0:27:07 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- What evidence is there that the grandparents are to blame???? If the parents knew about a sawed off shotgun that should have set of some warning bells that the kid was up to no good. I'm sure they are thinking now that they should have taken it away and got the kid into some kind of therapy. But then again, the kid has to be willing for therapy. The least they should have done though is to remove the weapon from the kid and check out his room for any other shit he might have been up to. - 3:13:06 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:I imagine a steady, assuring, loving and consequential ] grandfather or grandmother being a great addition to the emotional health of those latchkey kids. Surely most kids who come home to an empty house having endured a bully at school, has to feel pretty damn shitty. Don't we all like to share our day with someone who cares at the end of the day? Mom and Dad are busy making a living, then who better to "be there" than a grandparent? But NOOOOOOOOoooooooo......, they are off playing golf in Arizona. Does the word disfunctional mean anything? If not grandparents then WHO? - 3:36:59 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- Hold it! I agree that if grandparents can be there then great! I was lucky enough to have my gram live near to me although, believe it or not, I never was babysat by anyone. My parents were farmers so they didn't really go out a lot and if they did go out at all like weddings etc. we HAD to got too. Once I was 12, I was able to stay home and look after everything if they went out (I hated going to weddings and I still do). What I found great about my grandparents being close was that if I had a problem with my parents, I could go talk to Gram, she would then help we talk to my parents. Although she didn't always (almost never, lol) change their minds, she was a support when everything else seemed to be crappy. I think though that kids should be able to talk to someone and making time for those talks when parents come home from work would be a plan. But..I think we are all sympathizing with how these boys felt when a bully pushed them around and I too knows how that feels. Empathy is great but I can not have empathy with someone who planned to kill a whole bunch of people who have never done a thing to them. Were these boys really victims..I don't think so. - 4:07:09 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY00: If something must be blamed, which I'druther, one of the first ideas to be revamped, it would be that forgiving stuff. That idea shreds anyone's sense and understanding of a real and actual responsibility. Like DARRELL above jabs a stick at G'parents, the weakness o'which is easily shown by JOETTE just asking where would that end. Or, does this mean to take this point o'view towards free will stuff? Maybe, but nevertheless, it seems like one of the first things to be done is teach, educate these young minds on how to understand and control their tyrannicalness, their senses and emotions. Heck, back when, my ol'man met with school authoritys on several occasions on my behalf 'cuz of some resistances to peers and authority offerred up by me. There warn't no forgivin'of anything in me so I didn't then and don't yet expect any from anything. So very briefly, thats a how and what of, which is the from which I see the sheer importance of responsibility. It is always you and only you. - 15:00:27 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Marlene, you agree . . "that if grandparents can be there then great." Marlene, they CAN be there, My focus is on those GP's who choose not to be. (there's a part of me that can't blame them.)I am not so narrow minded for you all to assume that I am only affixing blame of the GP's. That is ludicrous if it were true. I agreed with Joette and her point is well taken my thoughts extend to the GP's because in reading the media, especially the Denver Post's "YOUR VOICE," I read no mention of the GP's. All of us, as a village of humans, have a responsibility to each other. I deplore the actions of the ultimate bullies, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold but I just can't help to wonder what, if any, could having GP's in their lives helped those dysfunctional kids. I can't say as I see that the WWII generation's greed and individual selfishness didn't have AN influential part in this debacle. Golf anyone? - 17:09:23 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:DARRELL: Too bad STEVEN ain't here as often as before, but I bet he could say a thing or two 'bout that village stuff. Are you really taken in by that clinton pr stuff'bout the village? In this day n'age when we communcate with other at this very moment from any and all from anywhere now on the planet via a keyboard? Regressive thought patterns are like the xtian's wishful thoughts o'godthings and heavens. Since you and I no longer have to worry about gettin'et by some lion or bear, the only fear left, if you must have such, is that space and time between us. Logic of the cave-dweller, well, what do you expect of it? - 17:57:02 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Joette (hmph!):DARRELL....what responsibility do the grandparents take? That their children didn't teach their own children properly? Bullshit that they HAVE to be there. I don't know what type of utopian society you come from, but in the real world, older people don't have to sell their souls for the whole of their lives. Is it resentment you are feeling about this? You live in Arizona, lots of grandparents go to Arizona. Is this the real crux of the matter? - 19:51:29 on 27 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:DARRELL; I think your being unreasonable about the grandparents having to raise grandchildren.They put their time in already and deserve retirement. "but I bet he could say a thing or two 'bout that village stuff." yeh and if you look a Hilary she looks like she's the author of that speach. - 2:59:38 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:The roll a grandparent can play or can BE is without question one of supporting stability. I lived it and when I needed that extra guidance, they gave it and watched that I kept in line. I was accountable to them too. Yes, I now live in the land where they play and play and play. ALL DAY. They have relinguished their responsibility to society and are empty souls. This is what I see in them. Lost souls separated from the village and could care less about their families.It HAS to have some impact on the kids. I want to know how much an impact it is. Thass all. Seems I am diametrically opposed to most here so I'll drop the subject now. - 4:12:28 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:Lastly,having slept on it, Doug. Your "space-time & keyboard" comment is analogous to blowing kisses. I don't know much about you but if an electronic "((hug))" suffices, then perhaps you need to get out in the real forest and feel the fear of STILL getting eaten by a lion or bear. Bring your laptop to impress the hell of them. Doug, you don't know me. I'm usually, usless it's a beautiful woman in red, not "taken in" by anything. I resent that ignorance-infered assumption of yours. Now, Joette,reread my posts, there you'll find nowhere where I typed the word "have" to. And besides it's not "selling their souls," conversely, it's enhancing them. You need to see/feel the disconnectedness they bring with them to Arizona. They are not loving people. If they'd do some volunteering, say, at the library or at an animal shelter, or anyplace, they might become greedless again. Joette, I guess, I'm NOT in "the real world" so, from hence forth, don't bother yourself with my insipidness. It's OK. Back to utopia. Grant, excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by "Darrell used in many P* notes" ? - 11:58:56 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Grant (I haven't a clue):Good morning, DARRELL. Some aspire to greatness; some have greatness thrust upon them. Others, I guess, are destined only to be electronic irritants, barnacles on the ass of society. 'Twas only the lowly spammer. - 12:53:51 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:Hmmm?: Analogous to blowing kisses, DARRELL, ever take or do a Rorschach? - 14:53:59 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Darrell:You ALL have a good life. I'm out of here. I'd rather spend my time with those accustom to comprehension and inquiry. Those who like to "what if." ((hugs)) - 15:35:26 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:DARRELL: wow, you scurry to conclusions, my query's sought to comprehend what you wanted to convey. One must have a basis for a 'what if' field o'exchange if one seeks a meaningful exchange. Do you want an airy nebulousness of thought? - 16:12:10 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- In case you didn't know, we've been plagued with a spammer for about a year now. Grant does what he can to edit the page but once in a while his posts show up accidently. BTW, he has now stooped to posting under our names thinking that he can sneak in that way. The guy obviously hasn't got a life. - 16:20:49 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:DARRELL- If your still around???? One thing about Canadians is that we have a whole bunch of social programs paid for and controlled by the government. With all these programs in place many Canadians say, why volunteer? I've been one of those who have and still do volunteer where I can but it's hell trying to find others who are willing to do so. You have a point! - 16:26:52 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:FYI - today Canada had a "copy cat" shooting. A former Grade 9 student went into a school wearing a navy blue trench coat, armed with a .22, and shot two people, one dead now, the other in critical condition. This isn't the first time this happened here, so it's not like we are immune to this (we had a massacre of 14 female engineering students at the University of Montreal about 10 years ago), but it was only reported on the news here as an incidental to the Littleton shooting. We will never hear the end of it? It is being described as the worst school tragedy in history, but did you know that in 1927, a school board treasurer in Michigan planted dynamite in the basement of a small school and killed 28 children? This was in retaliation for school taxes being raised. Just ruminating here. - 22:42:05 on 28 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Sad! And sadder yet is this kid will likely get 4 months in a youth facility, his parents will be blamed (of course), a psychologist will talk to the kid and deem him cured of his parent's bad influences after two sessions with the psychologist and it will be all forgotten about, the kid will go to a group home where he will do whatever he pleases because the group homes would not be in buiness if they showed a high failure rate so they let the kids do whatever then actually lie to cover up the kid's behavior. How do I know? At least four kids I know have murdered here and this is what happened. BTW, we'll never know this kid's name unless he's raised to adult court and this is unlikely because I understand he is 14. In a case like this though, I don't think the kid deserves the fame he would get out of this. Better he stay a nobody. No, it's not the first school shooting, like I said it happened here about eight years ago and I wouldn't doubt now that it happened in Alberta it will be tried here in Manitoba too. - 3:38:24 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :JOETTE <<>> was the first thought that went through your head "the damn Americans and their guns" when you heard about the 'copy cat' shooting? - 12:54:59 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Carl :KIDSTUFF: while religion is conceptually dismaying as it deals out physical death the examples of which CO and now Canada again knows, the kids ain't all bad. Check out this site, it can use our support. - 14:52:59 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY00: as you can see, the site has a chat and I've started my contact with it. For as long as it is online I'll stay in contact with it to see where and how and if it goes on. If it is on level ground, its a first such sighting for me, and I am pleased to see it. - 15:00:26 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:STEVEN - that thought goes through my head as soon as I wake up everyday, naturally! LOL! - 15:52:49 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: update, 10th grader hit a curve for HR #4, distance in air exceeded 400', it was a blast - 16:24:16 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:ANY01: It could be referred to as an example of one's satisfaction to login here, and not have to visually experience the garbage as in the foretimes. Freedom of speech, now I am inclined to say "speech" and "expression" are not one and the same. - 18:23:45 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Grant:CARL-- I wish there had been an atheist club around when I was a chitlin. They probably would have made us wear a star or something, though. - 19:18:13 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Steven :JOETTE <<>> hehe, sorry, what I said looked kind of rude, i didnt have any coffee at the time i posted and I was going through withdrawl. GRANT <<>>> ROFL! wear a star, that is funny. JOKE <<>> these two cannibals are eating a clown when one of the cannibals questions the other "Hey, does this taste funny to you?" - 19:51:12 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:Wow! Big tax cut announced for we Manitobans! From 50% to 47% but of course it will be 1% next year and 2% for the year 2000. How do these politicians sleep at night! STEVEN- I liked that one! BTW, I'm one Canadian that doesn't blame the gun laws although I don't like guns. I think our problem with teen shooters is a combination of a whole lot of things. I understand it wasn't a gun store owner that sold these teen shooters the guns but a pizza delivery guy. Maybe there should be tougher laws for the blackmarket dealers. Also I don't blame the US. I have personally found more American teens to be more socially productive than Canadian teens. Also ask most Canadian kids and they don't see themselves as any different than the kids in the US. Talking to one boy last night on the "blame the parent thing".. He's a grade 12 student that works in the same mall as I do. He said they had a class discussion yesterday on the causes of teen violence. Overwhelmingly the students felt it was portayed in movies and in TV programs that the tougher you are the cooler you are. many of them admitted that they used violence to an extent to solve conflict problems and that it was much more acceptable to them and any other peers than "talking it out". When the teacher asked them how their parents felt about it, they said their parents were not in favor of the violence also one kid actually asked, "how many of you dudes were spanked?" and only one of the fourty-three students involved in the discussion can remember being spanked. All of we adults "think" we know the cause, how about asking the majority of the teens. I don't mean the 14 year olds that are still in the transitition stage, then majority of the 18 year olds who are now starting adult life. - 22:21:15 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:When I was a kid, we played "cowboys and Indians", "cops and robbers", or reenacted famous war battles. Naturally, we used sticks as guns or toy guns and rifles. Of course, the cowboys, the Indians, and the non-German or non-Japanese sides got to kill all the others. Can we say this new culture of violence is new? No. We had the same influences , only they were in black and white instead of technicolour. One hundred years ago famous gunshooters were revered, in the Roaring 20's and the 30's, there were gangsters. In the 40's, 50's, and 60's we had real life wars. How can anyone truly blame the current violent culture on anything, since nothing has changed? - 23:39:46 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE - be thankful for that 3% tax cut. We have had a 30% tax cut over the last 4 years on our provincial taxes, and to pay for it hospitals and schools were shut down. I'd rather have the services than the extra $100 a year in my wallet. - 23:41:19 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Joette:STEVEN - on Friday night NBC is having a special report called "Guns In America, A Day In a Life". I thought you would want to watch it. - 23:42:44 on 29 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I agree that they can keep the extra $50 it will give me but how far will that money go toward health care. With the taxes we are paying and BTW our gas price here is only lower than Yellowknife's now, there is something truly rotten in Denmark on how the government is really spending the money. I don't know about cowboys and Indians, when I was a kid I couldn't really name the actor nor did I care who they were. I liked the horses the Indians rode, lol. I've listened to the music and I've seen the shows nowadays both are disgusting and wrapped up and presented as creative. Can't agree with you there. I agree with the kids I've talked to. The one thing the boy I was talking to did say, which does make a difference, was that although he's into all that violent stuff too, he know fantasy from real life. - 3:31:35 on 30 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I just realized something..those really "born-again" xtians also live in a real fantasy world and believe it to be real. Like the rapture etc. and talking in tongues. Maybe this living out fantsies in the real world is a meme or something. - 3:35:43 on 30 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Tis' me again. Wasn't it years ago that a lot of young men wanted to be like Billy the Kid or how about that gangster Al Capone. Maybe we are just too use to the way the late 60's were with all the non-violent movements. - 3:38:27 on 30 Apr 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I don't think the kids 'today' are softer in the head than those of past, but the finger pointing reports and assorted accounts we see, i see, make me think kids are soft, today. These kids today, apparently, can't determine where lay the difference between their psycho-physical stuff. The best example I laugh at, they can't even see 'Joe-Camel' for what it is. Do you recall how in those old movies we got to see events and acts of death? Nowadays, I am sure that it will be a long time before we see another, "make my day" scene. I saw that as yungster, I didn't see it as anything except for what it was, a movie. I didn't then and haven't yet done anything inspired by that scene, remember "Shane"and all the shootin'and death dealin'in it? I am sure its a softness of mind, but whose and maybe too, what are the composers of these articles, what are "they" up to? - 15:10:00 on 30 Apr 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Maybe too that in our day the setting didn't seem realistic. Now the movies seem very realistic. I was listening to a radio show this morning on violence and young adults. There were three guests the host had on, a xtian pastor, a jewish rabbi and a wiccian priestess. The rabbi was actually trying to find some terrestial reasons why as well as the priestess but the pastor was blaming it all on satan. Then they got into a huge argument about satan. I found that rather amusing, lol. The xtian, of course, gives satan a personality and claimed "he" is a very real presence. The rabbi says that there is no satan in his religion, rather that the old testament refers to evil deeds that humans do, bad things like killing others etc. The priestess also feels there is no satan. The xtian was really huffy about this. The whole discussion got out of control and was really off the subject. As I say, it was really quite amusing. - 20:37:30 on 30 Apr 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene+Joette; when I was a kid we all played guns or cop and robbers.We fought every battle and robbed every bank. but not one of us turned out violent.And we didn't go to church either at least most of the neighborhood didn't. I think all this violece has something to do with not knowing what your future is.What I mean is that life is so much harder and faster today with the goodies being waved in your face all the time.If your a have not you get downright frustrated and seek revenge for your plight.I know that at least one kid came from an affluent family.He did have mental health problems that his family and doctor tried to quick fix (the old 2hrs waiting, 5 mins seeing the dr.). - 22:15:03 on 30 Apr 99 GMT